General chat episode 16

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Speechless!!

Post by lizzy1980 on Sun 31 May - 19:27:39

unbelievable. shocking. very brave and intense. sam is absolutely brilliant. cannot find the right words yet. I'm not sure I'm able to think right now. still seeing the last Pictures. great job of all of them but sam stands out by far!!!

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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by connieg on Sun 31 May - 19:30:12

WOW!!
The relief on Claire's face when the rescue party came into view was palpable.
Leave it to Angus and Rupert for comic relief.
I had goose bumps at the end when the camera panned out.
I'm still digesting everything.
I'm glad I put the book down.
If Sam, Caitriona and Tobias don't win Emmys, there's no justice in the world!!!

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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by Misty Blue on Sun 31 May - 19:38:17

"YES! YES! YES!" To all you just said connieg - very well put!
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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by Shagur on Sun 31 May - 19:51:02

After the credits finished I stared at the black screen for several minutes. Speechless. Not knowing how to feel. Now I´ll have a glass of whisky ...
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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by glenys on Sun 31 May - 20:49:40

Thank you, thank you Logo 1960 for episode 16. What would I do without you. If you are ever around my part of the Canadian country (Cobourg, Ontario) please come with your husband and enjoy a dram of whisky. ..................Cheers Glenys
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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by Polarbear on Sun 31 May - 20:58:51

I`ve just seen the episode and I´m shocked even though I read the books many times. But it´s another Thing to watch than to read about the rape and all the things that happened in the prison. Ist was very brutally. A very good play from both of the men.
But in the end, i was wondering about Claire telling Jamie that she was pregnant ON THE SHIP?? Sometimes, I ask myself why books have to be changed so much when they are adapted making a movie...
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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by heatherdrum on Mon 1 Jun - 7:29:54

Ok, all I can say is thank God for this forum.  This is such a powerful, intense, heart wrenching, satisfying happiness episode but us Canadian viewers had to suffer dearly to watch it.  Showcase did not edit out anything but it was 5 mins worth of show then 10 mins worth of commercials especially at the end.  

Logo1960, thank you sooo sooo much for taking time out of your vacation to upload this episode for us so quickly.
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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by soniaG on Mon 1 Jun - 11:31:10

Dear all,

I am sending a big hello and must confess .. I still didn´t see this episode! After reading two reviews in order to prepare myself what is coming more en detail .. I was sick .. so sick I couldn´t eat properly yesterday becaues it already triggered a lot of memories! It was not so nice ..  Crying or Very sad

.. but I am starting to feel slightly better! I had a good sleep and I did find a lot of good articles about this episode.

That is all for now .. I don´t know yet when I will see this episode .. til then!

Sending to all of you who are still suffering .. a big grouphug

SoniaG


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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by karelynnCDN on Mon 1 Jun - 17:15:54

This is so odd for me, I was actually surprised that the rape and torture took place in a really grimy dungeon, I don't know why I had thought from the book that it was more of a refined office setting. I guess I always think of Jack as being an officer and from a refined family, which to me makes his sadism more revolting.

I thought it was very effective to have many flashbacks within the episode - so many made us feel like it must have felt for Jamie, that it went on and on and on and would never end.

Outstanding episode for so many reasons.

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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by lochness on Mon 1 Jun - 20:42:18

Dear All

Ok I think everyone has had a chance to see this episode. I would like to start off with some of my major disappointments with this episode. I felt that it had no balance. Ron and company were very heavy handed and pushed us to the brink with brutual sadistic TV scenes but were unwilling to answer those with love or healing. I especially felt that Cait's hands were tied on her script and it was obvious she wasn't going to be "allowed" to fully play a healer's role here. That for me is really absurd because Claire is a healer. That healer just happens to be packaged in one fantastic woman! I know they did this on purpose to heighten the tension going into season two where they are going to be constantly testing J&C well into season two over this and Faith. Look these folks that are making this adaptation have little confidence in their audience that simply telling the story of J&C and their growing bond and love will get an audience to view the event. I saw a tweet from Ron that he doesn't even view the J&C relationship as being the most important thing in the books. I wish I knew what he thought was #1 thing was because he has lost me on that one. I didn't care for the confession which was rushed and didn't really fit well in the flow. It seemed at best rather awkward like lets get this out the way and move on. Claire telling Jamie of the pregnancy on the boat was a tide me over till next season kind of move from folks that have exhausted themselves and now need to think about some way to get you to watch next season because their bag is empty. Sorry I thought the episode had great acting and certainly delivered the WOW moments but to what purpose other then competing with GOT. For once I actually just watched this thing without the book and I am really aware of their thin story line covered up with lots of brutality disguised as substance.


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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by Sternenglanz68 on Mon 1 Jun - 20:50:42

Hi all,

just finished watching and am speechless as well! Have to consult my pillow before being able to say more. But for now: Cait brilliant, Sam brilliant, Tobias arrrggghhh ok brilliant too! Love the guys Willie, Angus and Rupert! And Murthagh? As like right from the start nothing changed - love him too Wink. But I must say for non-book-readers this was real strong stuff shocked No pale Just imagine watching this without knowing what´s it all about Question

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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by tearose on Mon 1 Jun - 21:40:44

I haven't managed to watch the whole series, but made sure I watched this one. I read several blogs and comments on FB pages before I actually watched it, so I knew it was going to be different..... and although it wasn't as powerful in a sense as the book, it was very well done it its own right.
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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by ayrlassie on Mon 1 Jun - 23:48:17

Dear All,

So, maybe now I can get a few of my thoughts down - perhaps not all of them (there are way too many).

I did like:

It's a no-brainer that the acting was superb, by everyone, but Sam shone through for me ...... how he conveyed his emotions via facial expressions was for me gob-smacking!  I would think that to be subjected to the extreme sexual and psychological violence that he had to endure to the point of being emotionally broken (I know it's acting but as a human being it must have an effect to some extent) would be much harder to convey than being the perpetrator of such evilness. The journey into that darkness was indeed very hard to watch....especially to a character that we've all loved for so many years  sad   shocked  I also liked how they morphed BJR and Claire's faces.....very clever!

Having said that

I do agree with you lochness that this episode did not seem balanced - too much violence and not enough of the 'Ransoming' of Jamie's soul by Claire although I must admit that I had tears streaming down my face when she said she would die with him - it just wasn't enough for me - the most tender moments from the book were too rushed.  I did read in an article that Ron hesitated over putting in the Confessional scene and Diana really pushed for it.....maybe that's why it didn't resonate in comparison to her words as it was just a 'little' appeasement to her wishes. Perhaps as you said.....the powers that be wanted it to be more like GoT - to attract more 'macho' male viewers.  Whatever!  I will always have my beloved books to go back to - and I will - they can't take that away from me, ever.

Dear Astrid - yes, Murtagh, Willie, Rupert and Angus.  Murtagh really shone through as the loving, caring God-Father he is.  Well, Angus....the little s*it when he tried to kiss Claire brought some humour, and Rupert showed absolute respect and admiration for her.  I think Willy might be secretly in love with her  Wink

That's it for now.

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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by connieg on Tue 2 Jun - 0:07:20

First of all, SoniaG, you have alluded to having had something terrible and traumatic happen to you (our imagination can probably only scratch the surface). I am so sorry. And don't even think about watching this episode until you're ready (if ever). Sending hugs and moral support.

Lochness, The scenes were brutal and sadistic but some of the love that we hoped would be tipped toward Claire's scales, actually came from BJR. I couldn't believe the 'tenderness' with which he caressed Jamie's face and body. I actually believed he had 'love' for Jamie. His goal was not just to rape but to seduce and he did that when he broke Jamie. I believe Ron didn't cross the line into gratuitous violence and sex, he actually (or maybe it was Anna as director) portrayed BJR's sensuous feelings towards Jamie. And that really emphasized BJR's sick mind and his infatuation with Jamie.

You're right, if Ron doesn't believe that the romance/relationship between J&C is the primary focus of the books, then he's definitely missed the mark. I fantasize about the totality of that relationship (even though I've been happily married for 40 years) and believe in their solid foundation.

Maybe the confession didn't quite fit into the flow, but I believe it was necessary for Claire to be able to confide in someone that wouldn't judge her.

I thought her telling Jamie she was pregnant could have been handled more romantically,as opposed to "I'm pregnant".

Something that really bothers me is the fact that Murtagh, Willie, Angus and Rupert know he was raped. That was something that he held 'close to the vest' in the books and only ever shared with Claire (and I believe John learned about it as well). How will that dynamic affect his relationships with the 'guys'?

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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by Teasle11 on Tue 2 Jun - 13:22:26

Thanks for sharing all your thoughts everyone. ConnieG, do we know who knew what about the rape in the books? Who was in the cell when he was rescued, just McRannoch or any of the others too? What did they see? They may not know exactly what happened and just think he wants to die because of his crippled hand (Willie's story about his uncle? implies that he didn't know). Even if they know/suspect he was raped, they don't know the worst of it. He tells some of it to Ian eventually and Ian's eventual understanding helps him heal further. I hope they include that in the future.
After a second viewing, I like the episode more and get why they changed the timing and stuff that was weird or difficult to understand in the books. They have limited time and budget, so I understand why they didn't show J&C make love this episode, it was too soon. Can't wait until S2!
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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by heatherdrum on Tue 2 Jun - 19:40:28

I was ironing Willie's hunting Fraser kilt for a piping gig he has tonight and all I could do was hum Skye Boat Song and think about the last 3 episodes together.  

I liked the episode as a whole.  In the book, my impression is that Murtagh was the only one in cell as Angus and Rupert & Willie were told to run for McKenzie lands as soon as the coos were in the prison.  So Murtagh would have seen the injuries but not known the buggery as there was way more physical damage done than in the show.  BJ flogged Jamie again during the torture as he couldn't lie on his back due to his back, buttocks & legs be striped and bloody.  

In the show, Murtagh stood in for both himself and McRannoch as well as Angus and Rupert would not have had time to figure out just what was done to Jamie in the short time they had to get him out of there.  Torture obviously by his hand and bruising.  

I would have edited the last 3 episodes differently and together as a whole.  I would have shortened the search, did the gypsy part as in the book and ended #14 with the opening screen of #15 with BJ's relieved/satisfied/lustful look as Jamie is led away to the dungeon cell.  Opened #15 with Claire in the Governor's office and ended with BJ at the door looking out at the coos.  I think, it would have given #16 more time to Jamie & Claire's struggle with what happened.  The book had Jamie putting on a brave face for Claire in the very beginning of her working on his injuries, hence the John Wayne reference.  Then slowly falling into depression.  I think, that part was rushed as they had him go from traumatized to suicidal to coming to grips with it in too short a time.

All in all, for not knowing from the beginning of the producer's journey with this show if they would be on for more than 16 episode, they did do a good job of putting the essence of the book on screen.  Yes, all the little parts we booklanders love may have been left out or revised for time but I think they hit all the major themes that made the book such success; history, romance, love, conflict, intrigue, friendship, humour, lust, all there including an appearance of a happy ending if the show did not continue.


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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by lochness on Tue 2 Jun - 20:14:41

"I fantasize about the totality of that relationship (even though I've been happily married for 40 years) and believe in their solid foundation."


Hi ConnieG

It is indeeed something to shoot for in relationship. Being unable to be Jamie I have to be satisfied with being madly in love with my wife these last forty plus years as being a worthy substitute. From your posts its sounds as though your relationship has been that satisfying as well. Here is to more good times ahead and peace to all my outlander family here on the forum.
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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by connieg on Tue 2 Jun - 23:30:12

Hear, hear Lochness!

@Teasle11, I don't believe anyone but Claire knew about the rape right after. I know John knew about it later, I think Claire told him when they thought Jamie was dead. And maybe you're right that the "boys" may not have known exactly what happened, but only that Jamie had been tortured.

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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by ayrlassie on Wed 3 Jun - 3:44:48

Dear All,

As far as my memory serves me....the only person that knew exactly what had happened to Jamie was Claire when he told her during flashbacks in DIA.  Murtagh may have had a very good idea at the time but not the details and I don't think that he would have betrayed Jamie by telling anyone else. Jamie told Ian after he (Ian) had inadvertently (thinking of Jenny) cuddled up to and kissed Jamie when they had to spend the night together at a Cotter's cottage and Jamie gave him a black eye and attempted to strangled him.

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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by Aikman Lass on Wed 3 Jun - 4:35:16

Have to say before continuing...as usual lochness..Thank you for your no nonsense sane thinking in regard to the whole episode...All you have said I agree with ten times over. Ayrlassie nice to see you have similar thoughts as lochness does.

To all fellow forum members
Took me many hours of listening to music & watching humorous videos to settle my thoughts. I was wrong in assuming that this show would be similar to the previous. So so  wrong....& this episode was very wrong on so many levels. Part of this show...I felt my heart stopped and I was frozen in time. I have just spent many hours sitting on the forum sometimes lost & other times doing those 'Click Me's' that generally are not my thing... listening to music & watching funny videos to erase the worst but it's still like a leech that doesn't let go. Hopefully a little venting here will help.

Ron went too far this time with gore, violence, brutality, torture and R.....!  Whether female or male, torture - no torture it takes a very Very long time to heal enough to live normal but you live with the knowledge and pain for your lifetime. It can affect how you relate to family, friends, all other people & can affect relationships married or not. Some people are not so fortunate & live with mental issues or end their lives. For the initial beginning of saving Jamie's soul and bringing him back from the brink of death it took Claire a lot longer planning & struggle than "a couple of minutes" !
Ron has no concept of anything about the Outlander story other than it is something to toy with & remake into his version to attain awards & fame. I find it terrifying that many viewers elsewhere are so impressed with Ron's presentation of this vile pestilence in society.

Hope to take time a little later to hash over all the mess that really is not Outlander.
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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by lochness on Wed 3 Jun - 14:59:48

"Hope to take time a little later to hash over all the mess that really is not Outlander."

Hi Aikman Lass yes I agree. While there are elements of Outlander in the story Ron and company have definitely altered the character of it. Diana has been able to write about difficult topics and get away with it because she has balanced the story with forgiveness,love, healing. Thus she can and does on many fronts(rape,incest,sodomy etc) and have these violent acts themselves surrounded with even more violence that surrounds/follows. She does this because she pays homage to the healing acts of loving kindness so present in the Outlander series. In fact this is her balancing act that allows her to cover these difficult topics and still keep her audience from alienation. Seriously who can handle this in book form or real life without alienation or worse? This production never got that concept. From earlier times with the lack of developing the relationship between J&C to now with this gross display of violent theater put on by RM. Where is the healing,love and forgiveness to answer the violence perpetrated on our beloved characters? Where is the healing/love/forgiveness that answers these violent acts witnessed by all of us? Stay tuned for S2 is the only answer I have been able to glean from other comments. Is that enough? Only time will tell.
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rational criticism of outlander the tv series

Post by deebeewags on Wed 3 Jun - 17:33:56

It is a relief to read some objective views on the show. I agree that the show has turned Outlander into a GOT lookalike. It does not surprise me that Ron is quoted as saying he did not think the Jamie and Claire relationship /romance was core to the book, I was at a UK Outlander gathering recently at which he Terry, Maril and a rather self congratulatory producer/ screenwriter (whose name I forget) spoke and hosted a q&a session, and I felt that came across quite strongly. The J&C relationship to my mind is the one reason fans faithfully read the series, it makes reading the progressively ponderous, repetitive and often boring later books worthwhile in my opinion. (But then I am probably one of the few folk who think the series should have ended after Voyager and even then some serious editing was required- wash my mouth out with soap!) I have a suspicion that to sell the Outlander concept to Starz, it required a big play on the unpleasant gruesome thrill factor elements, sacrificing the core love story. Also I would suggest that in order to secure Tobias Menzies the best known of the actors in the US, which would have been part of the sales pitch to Starz, Ron had to make his role meatier and potentially award winning. Hence the predominance of Frank and BJR to the detriment of other key moments in the book. I also suspect that is why Dougie Henshall had quite a large part in one episode (although I am not sure how familiar he is to US audiences. It's a shame really as Sam and Cait, although relative unknowns, when the script allowed them to do so, really shone. But they could not develop the relationship when the words and scenes were not there and after all we are not privy to what fell on the cutting room floor.
I hope there is an improvement in balance in the next series, I suspect not, there will be more gruesome BJR flashbacks to illustrate Jamie's fragile emotional state, and the conflict between Claire and Jamie as result of this and the fate of Faith will be emphasised rather than the burgeoning relationship. I predict some more Frank flashbacks ( although more scope for this in Voyager,I think, although I do tend to get mixed up).Then there are huge possibilities of a sexual nature in and around the court of the French king, etc.
And the next million $ question? Will there be a series 3 commissioned?

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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by Ayuma702 on Wed 3 Jun - 17:39:54

Dear all,
this last episode was great.
Not exactly like in the book, but great. They all deserve an award.
But I felt - a little bit - sad, as if I had lost a good friend after weeks of loving, suffering and hoping together.
Yes, I was sad, watching the boat sailing away.....
And now we have to wait. what will be worse, because we know, there is something to wait for.
That´s all I have to say.
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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by karelynnCDN on Wed 3 Jun - 20:05:50

All through the last eight episodes of the series, I have had a niggling unease. I can't put my finger directly on it, but I feel that Claire has been lost in this second half, bits of her are there but not all of her and that makes me feel unsettled for the second season.

Somewhere I read an interview with Diana where she stressed that part of her focus in writing the books was to show a full married relationship, with all its ups, downs, passions, intimacies, estrangements, spiritual betrayals. In this second half of season 1, it almost feels like the old Hollywood mantra, "Well, they are married now, nothing interesting can happen." This is strongly illustrated by the healing process being so short as others have mentioned and done entirely with the two of them remaining in their shifts !!! There is no raw baring of body and soul on either of their parts.

Furthermore, Claire telling Jamie she is pregnant, one of the scariest and most intimate things any woman can tell her partner, being done on a pitching deck, with wind and seas and 20 pounds plus clothing wrapped round every part of you? What is intimate about that? It dulls Jamie's joy as well.

The intimacy has been lost, and that's where Claire is her most fearless and probably why she feels less to me in the second half.

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Re: General chat episode 16

Post by soniaG on Thu 4 Jun - 14:00:41

First of all, dear connieg, thank you very much for your kind words!!  hug

-------------------

Dear all,

I´ve read all things written here on this thread. As far as I got it .. there is overall praise (like Misty Blue, Marion, connieg & others had stated) for the phantastic display of all gruesome emotions from the actors Sam, Tobias, Claire and others! There is also stated varies times that this episode was very difficult to stomach and a lot of critics (like not balanced enough, too much cruelty, too much rape, too less Claire&Jamie and so on) were spoken out.

I hear you all and I do have an understanding for all these feelings! Hugs to everyone!!  grouphug


I´v seen now this episode but through fingers! In order to digest this episode I´ve read a ton of articles, reviews and all the main thread on CompuServe regarding this episode & many comments of others viewers (book readers, only viewers) to come to my senses. To let go almost all my critics I had before! Wink

I do understand, that you, dear Lochness and you, dear Aikman Lass and I believe a few others here think that this episode is far too gruesome, not balanced, too much focus on the rape things instead of staying true to the episode title To Ransom A Man´s Soul! You are – by the way – not alone with this. Many others viewers have this stated all over the internet.

I had all the same points& some more like that Jamie would never openly admitted or said that he want to take his life or even try to because he is a man of faith, a very strong faith which forbade him to do it or to seek it with force.

Several times during this season – especially during season two – I was on the fence regarding Ron Moore&all his and others writers interpretations of this beloved book story and its special story plot .. but I have made a turnaround regarding all the critic points regarding this episode and the overall story plot.

Why .. ?

Well, the books belongs to us but  making a TV show .. the interpretation is up and only to the filming crew (and in some aspects to DG if she is lucky) and depends on which kind of personal experiences each own single person of the crew brings to it AND what kind of story will attract most of the viewers.

And – by the way – Diana herself has no problem of it. I do have but well .. this is my personal problem. And I do believe – in the spiritual department/trauma department Ron and his team with all due respect for them is lacking.

Ron is getting this production because he has already made a name. But the most important thing is .. they are all in the movie/TV series business because to imprint their own signature/their very own view. That is the risk with making a TV series out of a book. And I found out, too, that even DG´s interpretations are not always the same like my very own.

And I do think why some of us are so disappointed of the balance in this and maybe in the episode before is .. because we did believe this TV show will end at the same place as the book. Well, Ron´s behavior let us allow to think  that it will be like this. (The title of the episode should have been renamed into To Ransom .. part one!)

But it is not ..
.. and I do think that (and realized through all the material I´ve read) that this episode it just be the beginning of healing and never was destined to come to the real end as it is in the book.

It - in fact -  is the continuation of episode 15 (it is a two parter as a member of compuserve stated who is in the film business) said and only the beginning of healing.

It is so to say a real cliffhanger but disguised with this travelling over sea at the end. This cliffhanger – I do think – most of us didn´t see coming and clearly don´t like. Because like this in the next season .. healing and all things there will be mingled!

Besides there are reasons why the healing like in the book does not take place. .. there are opinions out there (and Ron belongs to it) that most people wouldn´t  have or have not at all understood what was going on and for some persons in the Trauma Healing Business (well, I know a lot of all kind of how to deal with trauma and what techniques are out there – even learnt a few) won´t be happy with this sort of healing. (I have to contradict there .. out of very own personal experiences but well, that is the way it goes!)

Apart from all what I have said above .. I saw that they even changed the impact of how BJR tortures Jamie! Well, this I didn´t see coming, too! I do think here some of us may agree .. we don´t think of that the team crew will need to change something or would dare to change something essential! Well, they did and they will further do .. I predict that season two will be much  more different that we will expect! So prepare for this .. sending you hugs in advance!!

My question to the end of my long speech here is .. if the book Outlander would have had all the other POVs – especially had showed us all the crucial details between Jamie and Jack – would I have reread this book and fell in love with this series? Would I have fallen in love with these books if the story plot would have been like the TV show? What do you think? Would you?

I think not or I doubt it. But this is my very own personal view. I don´t know if I will watch season two .. but well, I have plenty of time to decide it ..

Besides: I do think it is time to open a thread to discuss the whole season on a different thread/topic. To discuss there .. how each one of us sees now the overall TV series .. Wink

That is it for now .. maybe I will return later regarding some critics en detail .. Wink


P.S. I do apologize for the really long post, dear admin staff members .. !
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soniaG
Jenny

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Re: General chat episode 16

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