General Chat for Episode 14

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General Chat for Episode 14

Post by tearose on Sat 9 May - 21:38:25

Discuss and dissect the episode here Smile

And please keep on topic. If you have other to discuss than the episode please do so in our monthly general chat, thank you Wink! Also we have asked you not to quote other posts to avoid having endless ones. It seems some of you guys get around this by answering directly into the quote. Please do not! It is not very nice to ignore our requests.


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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by lochness on Sun 10 May - 5:06:26

I could go on and on about just how amazing this was. They finally spent the time to develop the story plot and it showed. Claire and Murtagh were amazing together. Loved the women with guns chasing after their man.Cait can sing as well as act and Duncan well you get a great idea here why he and his character are so loved. This episode  really showed the resolve and fortitude Claire will need in the upcoming episodes . Cait did a great  job convincing me of that. Claire accepting Dougals offer of marriage if Jamie was dead in return for his allowing his men to join her attempt to rescue Jamie was an interesting twist. However I believe if Jamie was dead she would head back to the stones though she did shake on it. They did have changes obviously from the book but they get high marks from me for taking the time to develop the storyline. The last scene with Wentworth in the background, GULP! shocked  Laura,Cait and Duncan great job!
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Ilona on Sun 10 May - 12:25:14

I just can't help loving the show in spite of the producers sometimes failing on certain things like the storyline (@lochness and the others: you're right in critizising that). I still enjoy every minute of every episode. And I truly love #14, reason for it perfectly described by lochness. "A song is a song is a song" - and how cool was that ! And I laughed so hard at Murtagh doing the sword dance. AND I appreciate them showing Jenny getting rid of her milk in such a natural and unembarrasing way. It's the most natural thing after all. They did a fabulous job at that I think. And yes, kudos to Cait's singing. Wonderful episode, I hope I'll find the time to watch it again soon  !!
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by lochness on Sun 10 May - 13:44:16

Dear Ilona and All I need to "feel the love" in this production and it's been lacking for the most part especially between J&C. This episode got me feeling it with all the emotion. Yes there was no Jamie but that doesn't prevent the story development from telling just what he means to these three main characters. How great to see the relationship between Jenny and Claire finally blossom! To feel the pain in both Claire and Murtagh at the loss of Jamie. Claire's desperation before Dougal and what she wouldn't do to get her man back! To feel Jenny tell Claire that she is putting her faith in Claire to bring her brother back. Claire and Murtagh unable to quell there desperate feelings and sense of impending loss of Jamie. Yes I felt all that and more!This production has been in my opinion trying to get to this emotional level but failing for a multitude of reasons in the second half of season one. Perhaps it was occurring due to lack of storyline devoted to the main characters. We have seen a lot of effort to develop minor characters some invented just for the TV production. This is great in an ideal world where you have the time to devote to such a thing. However here this took away from your main character development and left us all gasping literally for that lost dialogue or looks/emotions that would have said so much more. Another result of the unnecessary extra story lines is the actual dropping of key moments between characters that like this episode would have told us in a "feelin it" fashion how they felt for each other. Memories of lost opportunities to do that abound. Here they made it for me. In spades! The last scene folks is visceral and gut wrenching. I am now very optimistic that we are going to get that visceral type of response in the last two episodes. I now have the faith that this will indeed attach J&C "at the Hip" in their deepest sense of being and take us on that journey Diana started for us so many years ago.


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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Ilona on Sun 10 May - 14:25:22

Dear lochness, I agree with you. I think my thorough  knowledge of the books makes me see or rather imagine the love I know is there. The better it felt to finally see it fully displayed on screen.
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by ayrlassie on Sun 10 May - 15:29:00

Dear lochness and Ilona,

I just finished watching it and agree with what you've both said....I'm not sure why (well, I do know why) at the end of the scene with Murtaugh telling Claire about Ellen, the tears were streaming down my cheeks....their portrayal in that scene by the ocean in the cave was so emotional and utterly gob-smacking - I think that's the first time that's happened (that I really sobbed) - kudos to them both for great acting!  As you said lochness....this episode allowed for wonderful character development between Claire and Jenny (fabulous acting again) and included all that we've missed in previous episodes.  Loved it!
Certainly feeling butterflies for next week shocked  shocked  shocked

More after I've viewed it a second time.


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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by carterd on Sun 10 May - 18:21:48

Weel, If there are no scenes between Claire and Jamie then scenes between Claire and Murtagh are the next best thing.

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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Misty Blue on Sun 10 May - 18:35:20

Dear lochness, Ilona, ayrlassie (Norma) & carterd
Well totally agree with all the above.........have literally just finished watching Episode 14 for the second time, & all I'm capable of saying right now is (& I refuse to swear on a Sunday) so I'm going to yell "BLOOMING BRILLIANT"!!!
This episode truly captured the essence, determination, struggle, despair, fight, passion & love, we know so well from our favourite characters.  The Production also did not deviate from the book as strongly as other Episodes, & ran the complete gauntlet of emotion's, without a shadow of a doubt.
Just like you Norma (ayrlassie) the tears were streaming down my own cheeks, at that scene between Claire & Murtagh in the cave, on the beach. sad
Phenomenal acting from Caitriona, Laura & Duncan.  If members of this very fine cast are not picking up a wealth of awards next year, there really is no justice!
As for what's to come - the heart pounding, & sweating hands has already begun for me, from that terrifying preview at the end of Episode 14............ shocked

Oh & by the way loved Caitriona's singing - lovely voice - is there anything this lady cannot do?
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by connieg on Mon 11 May - 3:07:56

Agree with you all, I loved this episode. I was sitting on the edge of my seat for the second half. Also shed tears for Murtagh, by the sea. I can't wait for the next 2 episodes, but don't really want to see them, knowing what's coming :(

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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by soniaG on Mon 11 May - 13:25:58

Dear all,

I haven´t seen this episode so far .. maybe I am going to watch it first when the last episode was aired. I am not sure now ..  maybe I am too much afraid for what is next on the line .. for all of us .. Wink

I am glad and happy for you all  to read that so many of you are happy with this episode so far .. Wink

-----

All the rest about proper posting with quoting or not .. I deleted! All the infos are on the board announcement. Wink


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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Teasle11 on Mon 11 May - 15:23:49

I hate to say anything negative about this show, which I absolutely love, but I was left bored and disappointed by this episode. I knew what was going to happen, so maybe that's why? It just went on and on, and there was no real emotional impact for me. As one reviewer has said, Claire seems to have spent more intimate moments with Murtagh than Jamie by the end of this episode. Last week I was nervous thinking about Wentworth, now I just want to get there for some action! Can't waitto see Jamie and BJR again.
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Shagur on Mon 11 May - 19:54:59

It´s not my favorite episode (how could it be, there´s not one single Jamie&Claire scene in it  lol!  ) but I liked the developement of the relationship between Claire&Jenny and Claire&Murtagh. Had tears in my eyes when Claire broke down in tears at Murtaghs shoulder. Caits acting convinced me more than in previous episodes. Jenny is such a tough lassie! And I always expected Willie would be involved in Jamies rescue.
Excellent the lines when Jenny tells Claire Jamie would not be daft enough to take on ten soldiers and Claire is not so sure about that and then Jennys face, being not so certain anymore …
The final scene … gulp … Wentworth looks more impressing than I imagined from the books, really scary.

But for me, the scenes with dancing Murtagh and singing Claire were much to long. Also the scene with Dougal and Claire could / should have been shorter. I understand that they had to fill the whole episode with the search due to the tv-story-arc for each episode, but it would have been easy to show Jamie on the run after Claire and Jenny found out that he could escape the redcoats.
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Aikman Lass on Thu 14 May - 21:45:41

alien Hi All:
This debate area is way too quiet Exclamation
 
I just can't shake my disillusionment with the producers Outlander show. My excitement to watch is no longer there due to the denigration of Diana's work....but I can't post my concerns without viewing so have to watch.

At the beginning I was happy they were keeping to the real Jenny & Claire scenes showing a closeness with regard to their love for Jamie (though the captured man should have been a 'Black Watch' not an English soldier). Next they actually bring Murtagh back into the story...Wow Exclamation I was more happy & impressed (thought for sure he was gone for good). Claire & Murtagh are off on travels to help Jamie find them...looking good:!:...NOT Exclamation  Good that it starts off with Claire treating sick people then....."RON" happens again. We had to endure too much of Murtagh & Claire traveling to villages & across open vistas - too much wasted time. For book readers we know that Murtagh did the singing & collected money & information while Claire treated ill people & told fortunes then Murtagh taught Claire some Scottish songs to join him in singing because she had a fair voice. I find it terrible that Ron in his constant need to change characters thought it fun to belittle Murtagh's character as a bit of a fool (no dancing skill but thinking he is good). Murtagh & Claire are supposed to be equal in their love & the hunt for Jamie but the producer has now turned that around making Murtagh subservient to Claire.  The producers are becoming ridiculous....now they make Claire the English singing star becoming known for her Boogie Woogie tune recreation. If we want great nonsensical humour we can watch 'Monty Python' shows (my all time favourites). This singing rendition was so far out there it was laughable.  Ron & Bear creativity Question  Question ...sadly lacking & they have definitely lost their way in the real story. Well I'll end my diatribe for now & tackle my other grips/likes in my next comment.
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by lochness on Fri 15 May - 10:52:35

Dear Aikman Lass I think the quiet part of the discussion forum just ended. I just finished reading "The Virgins" from "Dangerous Women" and it's interesting how Ron and company have drawn from that perspective in this production as it applies to Jamie and Ian. Diana mentioned earlier how the TV production may bring a quite different perspective due to the POV not being limited to Claire as it is in the earlier books. This may account for some perspective changes as well as the need to tell the story in this medium without a lot of voice overs. It's interesting that I found a lot more to Murtagh after the production then I got from the first book. It took me well into DIA and Paris before this character came into his fullness which made it such a shame for me when he died at Culloden. Always enjoy your input. It's a perspective and discussion for me that gets me looking at the production with different POV.
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Sealtainn_lass on Fri 15 May - 23:56:19

Folks, I have to agree with Lochness' original review of this episode and praise for them finally getting us back to the adaptation alot of us have been looking for since the second half of the season started, despite the lack of JAMMF :0/ I'm still concerned at Cait's ability to consistently deliver the Claire we know and love, and my only 'fear' about the next few episodes is whether she dilutes the superb quality that I'm confident Sam and Tobias will bring to what I have no doubt, providing Ron controls his tinkering, will be a stunning portrayal of a fundamental element to so many of the long term relationships in DG's 8 volume masterpiece.
I was also very relieved to see the return of the Mackenzie clan members - love Jenny, but there's def been something missing without Doogs, Angus, Rupert and gang.
Roll on Wentworth......
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Aikman Lass on Sat 16 May - 23:44:59

Smile Hi Lochness:
I had a different impression of Murtagh from the book and thought it was such a loss that he was not portrayed that way in the show. We do get a lot of negative content regarding his appearance & silence but there were so many bits & pieces throughout the book that gave me a growing love for this character. Took me a while to remember some parts so had to scan through my book again. Hope no one minds this extra long list of what I saw in Murtagh.
 
- Gallant & respectful of women - he rescues Claire from rape by BJR even though she is English
- Protector -  a Fraser he joined the MacKenzies to always be near to keep an eye on & protect Jamie
- Generous - shares bet winning with Jamie/ for Ellen paid for decorated silver on boar tusk bracelets
- Thoughtful & kind - He makes sure Claire has a proper wedding dress, maybe paid also
- Definitely canty – Murtagh’s rare smile seeing his efforts had Claire looking beautiful for the wedding
- Biddable & nice voice - On Jamie’s orders Murtagh protects Claire when the Rent party is attacked,
   before the attack Murtagh was singing & Claire thought he had a beautiful tenor voice
- Faithful & supportive - Murtagh was on his way with Jamie to rescue Claire from the witch trials
- Great forethought - At Leoch gets all belongings & wisely takes Claire’s medicines to Lallybroch
- Good tracker, intelligent planner - He finds J & C, he & Claire look for Jamie, singing & collecting info
- Takes risks for those he loves - saves Claire from Dougals’ lecherous advances, makes an enemy of
  MacKenzie’s by holding a gun on Dougal & taking his money for the sake of saving Jamie    
- Strong  leader  - Murtagh is the one who convinces five of the MacKenzie men to help save Jamie
- Brave - At risk of death enters Wentworth not once but twice to save Jamie/ kills wild boar with just
   a knife to prove his worthiness as a man to Ellen
- Intelligent - Murtaghs idea, use the coos as a ruse to get into Wentworth & enlist MacRannoch’s help
- Protective all - Murtagh refuses MacRannoch’s offer for help them escape not wanting to endanger
    MacRannoch and his people
- Efficient & caregiver - He arranges passage on a ship & helps care for a violently seasick Jamie
- Fatherly – Jamie had wise teachings from his father but I believe also his godfather's sage advice  
- He deeply loved a woman then never married but out of such love pledged an undying oath to her to
  protect her son
Many viewers wanted a nice looking Murtagh who spoke more lines in the Outlander. I prefer the book image because Murtagh’s  wonderful virtues far outshone his unattractive appearance and morose silence.  A man far more worthy of respect & love than someone such as Dougal who is handsome, lecherous, devious and power hungry. As I read further & further in the book I forgot the ugly image and saw only a wonderful man. Beauty is only skin deep it is what lies underneath and in the soul that is important in life. I wonder if anyone saw and understood Murtagh the way I did?
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by lochness on Sun 17 May - 0:35:07

Hi Aikman Lass Wow what a comprehensive list! Murtagh does tend to get lost in the whirlwind that surrounds J&C but your absolutely spot on in this. The more interaction I have with all of you here on the forum the more these books gather depth and body for me and here I thought I had devoured them to every last page. I was aware of a lot of this but failed to not really comprehend his whole persona till your list.
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by soniaG on Sun 17 May - 0:41:48

Dear Aikman Lass,

this is a phantastic, powerful summary .. this is almost a whorship of Murtagh! It is a beautiful picture of Murtagh .. Wink My congratulations to writing the post which speaks for itself!!!

Like you already said .. Murtagh is so much more! And I do love you listing all his moral fibers en detail! So on spot! mex wave  

For me Murtagh is and was always someone on whom you can rely one not matter what and is was never a question to overlook him or underestimate him or put him aside only because he was not talking a lot and described as being not very attractive.   A person who really knows what loyaltiy means (so many people nowadays don´t know it anymore .. ), what protection means. A person who would protect Jamie, Claire with his life .. no matter what! And he is clever, too!

Next time I am reading Outlander I will look more deeply in it but Murtagh´s outer appearance changed for me long. Often in my life I met men which weren´t interesting on the first glance but after the behaviour, a good voice could change everything. A person who behaves like Murtagh can suddenly become attractive to me .. because of his behaviour, because of his actions .. that is so much more powerful .. sometimes. And a person who is quiet but act like Murtagh is doing .. is sometimes much more interesting on the long haul  than someone who is expressing all his feelings right away in words. Murtagh is expressing his feelings in actions.

He is the a father figure for Jamie, sometimes the very best friend, sometimes his fighting comrade.

For me he was and is a very very important character of the first two books and he is still at Jamie´s side in all the upcoming wars then. I can´t imagine the book story without him. For me he is such a strong shield, a force of protection, reliability .. almost not human but so great and makes me feel safe .. just to have him near Jamie, Claire and all the others loved one of Jamie! Wink

Although I do like the actor which portrays Murtagh .. he is no match for the book Murtagh and how he is portrayed is not as strong as it is in the books. This is fine for me .. because I do have my own pictures from the books.

Thank you very much for this post of you! Sending a big smile to you and hug

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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Aikman Lass on Sun 17 May - 1:25:26

very happy Lochness
      Thank you so much for your comments! I think Diana fitted in these little bits and pieces so readers would always be aware of Murtagh's importance but perhaps she could have added some bigger rolls for this man who was so important to Jamie & also to Claire. For certain reasons I became a person who holds my emotions very tight & it is not often I cry except for the suffering or death of the innocents in life like babies, young people, animals, birds, etc. but I strangely I ended up crying for a book character 'Murtagh' dying at Culloden Moor.

You recognized the depth of Murtagh's wonderful character and felt the loss of not having him continue life's travels with Jamie & Claire. Glad you mentioned the 'Virgins' novella a book I'll will have to obtain now that you have connected it to Ron's work. I'll check out my book store. It's always good to see what else is shaping the TV production.
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by ayrlassie on Sun 17 May - 2:00:24

Dear Aikman Lass, lochness and Sonia .

I whole-hardheartedly  agree with all that you've said....he's my #1 favorite of all the sub/characters/co-stars.....for his depth of feeling and love of Jamie, and Claire, who he realizes is the absolute love of his God-son's life and in the end embraces her too - however tacitly <g> .

And, yes, his death at Culloden was heart-breaking! We never know what will 'trigger' our feelings....but it's good to let them out!

Just an aside Aikman Lass - I think the only way to find 'Virgins' is bundled in an e-book called Dangerous Women. Go on Diana's official website to check.

I plan to spend the next 'Droughtlander' catching up on all the novellas and space between books this way - it's the only way (besides reading the books.....once again...that I'll survive).

Never mind, there's still two episodes to watch!

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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Aikman Lass on Sun 17 May - 3:28:04

very happy  Hi soniaG:
      Thank you so much for the comments Exclamation
You obviously saw Murtagh the same way that I did. I do agree that Duncan Lacroix's acting is very good and he does Murtagh justice within the character the producers gave him but I still wish his role had been shaped like the book character. It is natural that people like to look at others that they perceive as beautiful but they often make the mistake of not looking beneath that beautiful veneer....Often what's underneath can be ugly. In Murtagh's case under his lack luster veneer is the true beauty we should all appreciate & aspire to have in life.

soniaG you touched on a very good point that I missed in connection to Murtagh's character. He is a quiet man of few words and he does express himself through his actions which are very powerful.

The next time readers decide to peruse through the book again they should see how many tiny comments are made about Murtagh such as 'he's a canty wee bird' or ' he's a braw rider' that give other inklings into his character or abilities.

Regards
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by soniaG on Fri 22 May - 20:38:13

Dear Ayrlassie,

ah, good to know .. that Murtagh is one of your favorite! Wink Yeah, .. there is enough good stuff to catch up and to divert you during the Droughtlander!

Dear Aikman Lass,

I so agree with "often what´s underneath can be ugly" or is so ugly you would be appalled.

In the nature .. animals often have very beautiful appearance when they are deathly!! I often think this is sometimes the same said about very beautiful looking persons ..

I remember a female fellow student who looked almost stunning and very well groomed and almost perfect. Then - due to a special occasion - we got the opportunity to visit her at home and .. at first view her main room seems to be impeccable but there was a curtain and behind .. behind it was really gruesome ..

Back to Murtagh ..

.. the most important thing about him is .. he rescues Claire after she fell through the stones .. he was bold enough to recognisize that she was different and without him .. Claire find have ended with BJR .. raped and tortured to death!!!

And he was able to change his initial deeper impressions of her .. (like in the comic The Exile) ..

So, that is it for now .. Wink
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Aikman Lass on Sun 24 May - 16:06:04

Smile Hi soniaG, ayrlassie & lochness:
We all found such wonderful virtues in Murtagh as we read the books & in the following storyline we all deeply regret the lose of his presence. I personally would have liked to see his character starting a new life in America & eventually finding a woman that filled him with the love & passion he had missed all those long years.

Because we all have similar thoughts in regard to Murtagh I was wondering what makes the four of us think a little differently from other readers? Or is it a simple explanation that very few members are interested in posting their thoughts or having discussion on topics? To understand book characters so profoundly...is it because we totally get immersed in the stories we read:?: do we develop an deep affinity to all characters:?: or is it simply that we look & judge people for who they are & not for outward appearances:?:  Any thoughts:?:  

Ayrlassie you hit the nail on the head with your observation that Murtagh (who we know loved one woman for his lifetime) recognized that great love between Jamie & Claire. SoniaG you also have a good point that Murtagh from the beginning might have recognized that something about Claire was different when he rescued her from BJR.
Lochness...You mentioned that it wasn't until later in the storyline that you appreciated Murtagh qualities & also regretted his lose. I think when reading your mind did put together all those little 'bits & pieces' that gave us all the wonderful things that made Murtagh special and that's why his lose was hard to accept. Maybe those 'bits & pieces' just became more obvious to me after reading the book a few times but I do know that I liked him from the first reading.

I have to say I never did read the comic-like book produced by Diana. This latest craze of 'comic book' style just doesn't cut it with me when I am reading a serious book. Like ayrlassie I will be trying to read any novellas that I can find. I've read all the books but didn't know about novellas. Thanks ayrlassie.

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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by ayrlassie on Tue 26 May - 3:39:46

Dear Aikman Lass,

Why is it that the four of us....you, Sonia, lochness and me feel the same about Murtagh?  Well, maybe we all share a bond of experience -  of friends that have shown us that deep abiding kinship, loyalty and love that transcends all and have shown us that no matter what.....they are there for us!  That's been my experience with a few of my friends (who I treasure with all my heart) and that's what I saw in Murtagh and why I appreciate him so much with regard to how he supports both Jamie and Claire.

Well, we'll have much more to discuss once the second Droughtlander begins won't we Wink

P.S. Aikman Lass....yes, wouldn't it be wonderful if Murtagh had been able to travel with Claire and Jamie to America!  I'm not sure how he would have handled all the goings on though, it would have been interesting to be sure cheers

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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

Post by Shagur on Tue 26 May - 20:41:37

ayrlassie wrote:yes, wouldn't it be wonderful if Murtagh had been able to travel with Claire and Jamie to America!  
Having been away for some days I just read this discussion;
Just my thoughts … Murtagh was always there to support and protect Jamie, he would never have left JAmie at Culloden. So when Jamie thought he was going die at the battlefield, Murtagh was determined to die there, too. He would never have left Jamie to flee from Culloden and join the other men from Lallybroch who could escape and retourn to their homes. As there was no way for him to survive Culloden, I´m sure it was a better death for him to die during the battle (and giving his life!! to save Jamie from being killed by BJR) than being shot a few days after Culloden when Lord Johns brother Hal saved Jamie from the execution and sent him home, but all the others were shot.
BUT: Murtagh never really leaves Jamie, doesn´t he? He´s always with him, especially on the eves of battles. He will be with Jamie forever. As will Ian. As will all our own beloved ones be with us, as long as we remember them.
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Shagur
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Re: General Chat for Episode 14

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