General Chat

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Re: General Chat

Post by Aikman Lass on Wed 22 Apr - 4:54:22

Pia wrote:

I do understand that there has to be modifications, the books being so big, and full of details.
But some details are more important than others, which is of course different from person to person Smile

Some of the new invents in the tv shows as story bridges are also genious but some just alter the the story to something I cannot recognise. As there is so much to find in the books, the new additions feel sometimes unnecessary.

Hi Pia:
I agree with you completely. Too many important details are being left out and what's worse is the ones left in are being changed too much and sometimes completely. TV produces should have a modicum of integrity and also respect for an authors written works. Making extreme changes to that work is insulting to the author and insulting to readers like us.   sad I already have problems recognizing parts of Outlander and I foresee it getting worse (if that's possible).
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soniaG wrote:Dear all,


P.S. I do have the question .. what about the smoke reaching toward the sky before Claire suppose to leave at the end .. has anyone a good interpretations?

Hi soniaG:
Interpretation of the smoke rising...a production crew and director that don't think to swift on their feet. Jamie and Claire are on the run and still possibly hunted by towns people or wardens that would want to bring them back for punishment. A man of Jamie's times would be cautious and do one of two things; he would not light a fire at all or he would have only a small fire located under a few leafy trees that help to diffuse the smoke so very little would reach open air.....The smoke & tree thing...just something I picked up from  study  reading a lot.
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Re: General Chat

Post by soniaG on Wed 22 Apr - 9:18:50

Dear all and here especially dear Aikman Lass,

I will write directly in your text .. Wink

Aikman Lass wrote:

Episode 11 – on one hand we can say ..interesting scenes, great acting, beautiful costuming, etc... But being the “Odd man out” I have say I prefer my book “The Real Story”.

Well, what can I say ..  I am with you .. all the way.

My first but expected disappointment is with the Thieves Hole scenes. ..  Really irritating was the flip-flopping of the interaction & emotions between the two characters:  Claire – anger, hate, distant, dreamy, happy, friendly, consoling, etc. / Geillis – sly, tough, cocky, sad, lost, cold, friendly, sympathetic. Not displayed in the written version like this.

My dear ..  I agree .. everything is different ..


Note.... How many noticed that along with Geillis’ Jacobite reasons for building her relationship with Dougal we are now given the impression that she loves him. She said Dougal “was her match”.....again here go the producers changing conversations – why?? .. Do the producers just want to change everything possible to make this story theirs instead of Diana's Question

Well, that was also my instant reaction .. I find this, too, a major change because it is not true to Geillis character! Later in the following books Geillis chose only men from which she can benefit .. feelings/emotions are not important to her or better said .. for me she is kind of a person not capable of real love ..


Did anyone also notice that Claire and Geillis are hardly dirty and their clothing is in pretty good order .. does anyone else think the ladies should have been a lot more dishevelled and really filthy Question  

Well, I did notice it .. but I did think .. it is the TV show and they stay in others things also not totally true to the time and circumstances! Diana says it is the freedom of the TV production ..

I do understand that you are disappointed much, is this right? I must admit .. I am more and more happy that all the things deviate so much from the books because like this the book belongs to us .. to me! Right now they have made so many changes (Jamie wanting to go home, Geillis in love, Leery with a much bigger role for example) that it is not the book story anymore for me!  

But back to you, dear Aikman Lass, why you are still watching this show or better what are hoping for or why you wanted to see this book on screen .. ?

Since a while I have been asking myself why Diana decided to let this TV show came true?

As far as I know she is not a fan of people using their story to make own fan stories and even say on her homepage somehow she don´t want to see those stories or hear about it. So .. how can she stand to watch another person dissecting her books and rearrange everything new and tweak it? I am really wondering? What about you all? What are you thinking were Diana´s reason for letting the TV show start?

And furter to your other reply ..

Aikman Lass wrote:
Interpretation of the smoke rising...a production crew and director that don't think to swift on their feet. Jamie and Claire are on the run and still possibly hunted by towns people or wardens that would want to bring them back for punishment. A man of Jamie's times would be cautious and do one of two things; he would not light a fire at all or he would have only a small fire located under a few leafy trees that help to diffuse the smoke so very little would reach open air.....
[/color]

That why I was probably so confused about this smoke! You are so right .. Jamie wouldn´t have any fire! This is another inconsistent production fault in my eyes .. for me this is almost a confirmation that the production is really rushed ..

----------------------

Dear all,

Well, we all read the book .. we know (the most who are here) them well but what about all the people out there who don´t know the books? It is so a pitty I can´t see this TV show without my book knowledge or can anyone of you? I do think why so many are happy to watch it because they fill in the blanks or what do you all think .. ? I am curious to know ..

Have a good time wherever you may be .. right now! Wink
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Re: General Chat

Post by Shagur on Wed 22 Apr - 11:44:30

As much as I can understand  and also share your points of view, that the series differs a lot from the books and we are missing many favorite lines and scenes, I´ve got one question to you all: would you rather like there was no TV series at all?
Diana sold the TV rights on her books (and got money for it  surprised  ) so she has got no rights what they are doing with her books. As she told us several times, she´s really glad there is a TV series but not a two-hours movie (that could have happened when she sold the TV-rights). Let´s be happy Ron does want and has Diana as a consultant for the series and she can change some things, has got a bit of influence on what they are doing.

Yes, some details are wrong. Jamie would never have had a fire at the stones. Their clothes were not wet after their escape from Wentworth. There is more politics, and so on ….

But let´s enjoy the things we like, that are fantastic.
Have a look at Jamies / Sam´s smile.
Laugh with Claire when she laughs in the wedding ep. after Jamie saying the horse-line.
Enjoy the details of the buildings and landscape, the details in the food in the kitchen at Leoch.
Enjoy Ruperts and Angus´ jokes.
The wool-waulking that wasn´t in the book at that point.
Whatever you like, and there´s so much we love about the series as well, isn´t it?

Sonia, I´m with you: the books are one thing, the series is another. We´ve got to separate them. And I do. Thank you Musette, connieg and outlander12 for your posts.

Really, I do not want to affront anyone of you (esp. lochness or Aikman Lass), please do not be offended or stop re-posting.
Just, wouldn´t it be nice to talk about the things we liked in ep. 11 also?
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Wed 22 Apr - 15:23:21

Well said Sonia and Shagur......nothing to add.....you've both said it all....Bravo!

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Re: General Chat

Post by Misty Blue on Wed 22 Apr - 15:31:59

ayrlassie wrote:Well said Sonia and Shagur......nothing to add.....you've both said it all....Bravo!

"I SECOND THAT NORMA (AYRLASSIE)!!! VERY WELL SAID INDEED LADIES!!! cheers
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Re: General Chat

Post by Aikman Lass on Wed 22 Apr - 15:38:50

soniaG wrote:
I do understand that you are disappointed much, is this right? I must admit .. I am more and more happy that all the things deviate so much from the books because like this the book belongs to us .. to me! Right now they have made so many changes (Jamie wanting to go home, Geillis in love, Leery with a much bigger role for example) that it is not the book story anymore for me!  
But back to you, dear Aikman Lass, why you are still watching this show or better what are hoping for or why you wanted to see this book on screen .. ?

Hi soniaG:
You read me well soniaG..I am very disappointed with the changes and especially with 'Ron who supposedly stated that he would stay as true to the book as possible'.  I have to say originally I had hoped for an Outlander movie simply because I like 'period piece' made-for-TV shows and movies....& what could be better to appease my Scottish heart & love of all things Scottish than an Outlander movie.... by the fourth book I knew a movie couldn't do it justice. I was happy to hear of a TV production & hoped to see the book brought to virtual life (sadly not to be). Why I still watch & what is the draw that keeps me hooked??..I admit to loving all the scenery, costumes, locations in Scotland and the actors/actresses are excellent. Smile  The Gaidhlig and Scots English accents and the music thrill me.  bounce  Like you I see that the book and the TV show are no longer the same....one thing I don't enjoy though is the confusion  confused  when I'm seeing or hearing things that don't fit in my mind. I find myself reaching for the Outlander to refresh the actual scenes I know so well.

Separate note...Even though I like the show for reasons mentioned I will be a malcontent in regards to the changes I don't like. Debating is good for venting.  sunny
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Re: General Chat

Post by Shagur on Wed 22 Apr - 17:05:33

Aikman Lass wrote:[
Debating is good for venting.  sunny
Regards Aikman Lass

That´s true ! very happy  


Back to ep.11 ;  Smile   I like the small details that continue througt the episodes: did you all see Jamie playing with his knife when Caire told him more about her past? He also did so (or similar) in the episode "Rent".
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Re: General Chat

Post by Aikman Lass on Wed 22 Apr - 17:37:36

Shagur wrote:  
Back to ep.11 ;  Smile   I like the small details that continue througt the episodes: did you all see Jamie playing with his knife when Caire told him more about her past? He also did so (or similar) in the episode "Rent".

Hi Shagur:  Idea I'm thinking about nowadays when some people are really stressed or dealing with  difficult situations it seems they often have to be playing with their hands. Their fingers have to be twiddling with pencils, cigarettes, sticks, etc. or even just doodling on a piece of paper...seems to be a requirement for concentration.  Maybe in the show there is some symbolism Question  implied or maybe he doesn't have a pencil??  lol!
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Re: General Chat

Post by Shagur on Wed 22 Apr - 17:55:35

Hi Aikman Lass,
yes, true, I´m always twiddling with my pen when my computer at work isn´t fast enough, I´m always very impatient. Fortunately I´ve got no knife to play with as Jamie has, because sometimes I´d like to just kick the bloody computer Blush  
Jamie and a pencil ...  funny idea ! kilt
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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Wed 22 Apr - 20:59:59

Hello Ladies

Prior to episode 11 I took time out of my busy schedule so I could download it onto my IPAD. If you remember we had a meeting last week in Houston. I thought that was important because for me the events that happen here are pivotal for the entire course of Book 1 and beyond. After reading the summary I was excited and was anticipating an incredible show from two extremely talented actors. What I got was really disappointing. Thats the truth and there is no sugar coating this. As Aikman Lass has so ably said this platform is great for venting and if its all right with everyone I will continue. Shagur asked me to list the stuff from this episode I liked so I will. I enjoyed Father Bain and how he manipulated the course of the trial. I enjoyed Claire at the trial digging her "hole" deeper and deeper as she couldn't seem to help herself with each outburst sinking her deeper. I enjoyed the deep emotions of each actor at the stones even as they were limited and pretty much dysfunctional in those attempts due to poor screen writing. See how ironic I can be when asked to rise to the occasion. Wink
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Re: General Chat

Post by Aikman Lass on Thu 23 Apr - 14:19:02

lochness wrote:After reading the summary I was excited and was anticipating an incredible show from two extremely talented actors. What I got was really disappointing. Thats the truth and there is no sugar coating this. As Aikman Lass has so ably said this platform is great for venting and if its all right with everyone I will continue. Shagur asked me to list the stuff from this episode I liked so I will. I enjoyed Father Bain and how he manipulated the course of the trial. I enjoyed Claire at the trial digging her "hole" deeper and deeper as she couldn't seem to help herself with each outburst sinking her deeper. I enjoyed the deep emotions of each actor at the stones even as they were limited and pretty much dysfunctional in those attempts due to poor screen writing. See how ironic I can be when asked to rise to the occasion. Wink

Hello lochness:  Madainn mhath.
........D I T T O........
Always like your insightful comments...nice to know there are others that discuss this show from the viewpoint of its deviatations from the book version...you articulate so much better than I can. Sooo sorry you seemed to be lumped in with me....But keep up the good work & keep all of us laughing & smiling!! Smile  

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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Thu 23 Apr - 18:01:11

Hello lochness: Madainn mhath.
........D I T T O.....

Dear Aikman Lass I consider it an honor to be grouped with you!

Ladies
I feel there are some important issues to discuss here. Perhaps this isn't the best place on this forum but we have grown much closer with our interactions that perhaps we can start the dialogue here and move it somewhere else if necessary.

First the TV Series itself. I believe this production still can be put back on tract. There remain opportunities in the next episode and perhaps 116 to "right" the ship. Even season 2 with the opening episode and lots of flashbacks can recover the momentum lost in 111. I remain optimistic that they will in the end get this right.

Next the real story here. I believe this is where the TV series has really missed the boat and it has to do with Claire and her interactions with Jamie. It has to do with Jamie and what I believe is what's actually going on before us. If you remember Jamie lost his mother early(4 y.o.) so he had limited interaction with the most important female in his life. Yes you could say Jenny took that role on but its not quite the same. We need to stop here so you are aware from where I am coming from. Despite how it appears out there, especially in repressive tribal societies, females not only choose the male but they have a huge input into creating the men who we all become. Jamie is no different. Though he has many societal roles to play its the influence of Claire herself that creates the Jamie we all love as is the case with all of us males. Women are not only the driving force in natural selection which evolves us males she is also the societal force as well which helps evolve the psyche of a male to take his place in society. This has been demonstrated countless times in history with instances like Lysistrata of Greece who led a revolt of women who than denied sexual favors until a war was settled. Yes males are taught hunting skills and how to interact with other tribal leaders by men but the finished product is more profoundly influenced by the most significant woman in his life his mother.Despite what all of us males would love to believe this does not work for our women. Rather they are shaped by their feminine counterparts and peers much more significantly then the male half of humanity. We men may love certain characteristics of female anatomy but the decision of whether women may comply or not is strictly decided by women not men. Observe the debate today about role models for girls particularly as it applies to skinny fashion models. Our women are driving that dialogue as they do with all other aspects of female development. Not so with the male side where its genuinely profound to observe the almost fear that comes from not being male enough. It is truly interesting to watch this at play and realize we males are the product of the women we love naturally and by selection. So when this crew deprives us of the interactions of J&C so profoundly were left with a very flat landscape to view. Claire since her first interaction with Jamie has been teaching him how to live with a significant, powerful and smart female and he needs this to complete his trip to manhood. Without his mother he has lacked what Claire is able to deliver and in many cases Claire is assuming that role here. Claire may appear at times to demur a decision to her husband but we all know whose the boss in the bedroom. That at least has been somewhat conveyed by the crew though in only certain contexts. I should know all this because I myself lacked a strong female presence in my life until I met my future wife and she is the one who polished my act sometimes subtly and other times in my face. Ladies I would love your input.
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Re: General Chat

Post by soniaG on Thu 23 Apr - 19:08:46

Dear Lochness,

thumps up for this long speech! Before I answer one of Aikman Lass posts about her disappointment and some new insights and theories I have about why are there many among us who are deeply disappointed and can´t easily overcome it .. I will answer to your post.

If I have understood you the right way .. you are saying.. woman are shaping men more as the other way around. That Claire is making first Jamie to real man and sometimes she is overtaking some sort of motherly role in his life. And that Claire is mostly the boss in the bedroom.

Based on this assumptions (I am sorry if I one or other misinterpreted) I want to say the following:

I do agree that the role of the mother plays a big part in men´s life as vice verse like the fathers plays a big part in women´s life/upbringing and it is this role model with whom we fall in love later and how the relation is going ..

I have to contradict you in a few points you made!

First I have to say Jamie is raised about 8 to 10 years from a very strong mother/female! That you can learn from the first excerpts of his parents story (which Diana has already posted and you can find here on the forum) and with all we do know from all the books.

Second he is partly raised from his older sister who posses a very strong proud personality and had a great influence on Jamie´s life. She managed the household from her 10th year on ..

In my opinion he is not lacking .. the contrary .. he is feeling attracted because he was already in younger years surrounded by strong women.

And third Jamie has parents who were living a very loving marriage where - as far as Diana let us know through the series - both are treating each other with equal respect which was not common in these times.
This is how I see is the basis Jamie got from being very small. His father shows him how woman are to be respected and treated well. Not seeking sex .. avoid visiting the house of prostitute while being in Paris and that sex and love are going hand in hand .. (that Jamie is so sensitive is one of the big success of the books .. that Jamie is respecting any woman .. )

I do think that Claire and Jamie are absolutely equal in their strong characters .. they are both shaping each other .. making each other stronger during her long ride together.

For me Jamie is as much the boss in bed as she is .. they have met their match .. this might be not already very  obvious in book 1 and 2 .. but it is already there. That is why this relationsship survived twenty years of separations and all the things they both have to face each other .. (and sometimes he is more the boss .. which Claire needs in my eyes .. in order to let go .. ) .. and that why they survive Wentworth, the loss of a child, the battlefields ..

And that is why for me the beating scene is so important to both of them .. it is also about Claire learning to let go of having the last word .. to learn the consequences of her sometimes rushed decisions and learn to follow and trust Jamie without always knowing all of the side facts. To trust him that he has only the best for her in mind .. (that is why the marriage between her and Frank was not really balanced .. she was there definitively the stronger part ..  and in my mind this marriage without Brianna and meeting Jamie wouldn´t have survived!).

And at the same time Jamie learns to put all the rules of this era besides and follow his own heart .. they are so successful because they are both strong .. and are willing to learn from each other and are talking a lot with each other (and I mean a lot) but also respect vulnerable points of the other persons  .. and their physical strong attraction to each other in combination that the sexual intercourse is for their one way to communicate with each other ..

It is also true that in a good relationsship between a man and a woman both sometimes are incorporating all kind of different roles (being sometimes motherly or fatherly, a teacher, a coach, a friend) .. there I do agree with you. But it should be balanced .. and not one sided on the long run.

That is how I do understand the book story line  ..

In the TV show Jamie is in my eyes portrayed in some things weaker or it appears to seem so emotionally but physical he is portrayed strong there, too .. that I was often so disappointed. Jamie is on the way (and in some ways he already is) to be great leader because he is able to take other opinion seriously and is a good observer ..

That is it for now ..

So, this is my input and point of view, dear Lochness! Wink

[I let aside all your points regarding your thesis (and of  many others) how usually the woman is the more or less stronger part of society ..  this a topic we could for sure discuss without an ending .. and I don´t want to dive into it .. here and now]


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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Thu 23 Apr - 19:36:11

Dear Sonia

Thanks for the response as always love your input and observations.
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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Thu 23 Apr - 20:17:49

Dear All

Interesting interview with Sam & Cait on episode 111. You can begin to understand the separation from the book. Apparently folks that love affair between J&C is not as strong as we thought it was. What do you all think about this.

https://www.bostonherald.com/entertainment/television/television_news/2015/04/outlander_stars_talk_claires_choice_in_the_devils
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Re: General Chat

Post by Shagur on Thu 23 Apr - 20:32:19

soniaG wrote:

I do think that Claire and Jamie are absolutely equal in their strong characters .. they are both shaping each other .. making each other stronger during her long ride together.

For me Jamie is as much the boss in bed as she is .. they have met their match .. this might be not already very  obvious in book 1 and 2 .. but it is already there. That is why this relationsship survived twenty years of separations and all the things they both have to face each other .. (and sometimes he is more the boss .. which Claire needs in my eyes .. in order to let go .. ) .. and that why they survive Wentworth, the loss of a child, the battlefields ..

Dear Sonia, I´m 100% with you!
And I personally think Jamie has perhaps a better idea of marriage. His mother died when he was eight years old, and his parents had a very good marriage, they were equals as far as we know. Then he spent one (or two?) years at Leoch with Colum and Letitia as well as one year at Dougals house and learned about their marriages.
Claires parents died when she was five. So she has less memories of their marriage, and Uncle Lamb was not married and she grew up with no permanent home. Yes, Frank, but most of the time they were seperated due to the war, so not much of a married life.
Of course both their ideas of a marriage are influenced by the century they grew up…
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Thu 23 Apr - 21:38:40

lochness wrote:Dear All

Interesting interview with Sam & Cait on episode 111. You can begin to understand the separation from the book. Apparently folks that love affair between J&C is not as strong as we thought it was. What do you all think about this.

https://www.bostonherald.com/entertainment/television/television_news/2015/04/outlander_stars_talk_claires_choice_in_the_devils

Hi lochness!

Funny how we all process things differently as that wasn't my take on it - but then I've read so many articles that I may have jumbled them all together Wink

In the book, at the stones after Jamie leaves her, Claire spends all day going back and forth examining and comparing Frank vs Jamie and it is emotion not reason that pulls her to stay with Jamie....that's when she knew her love for him and now together (hopefully) we will see that love blossom. I saw a clip of Cait where she is speaking about how, when she married Frank she was still a girl and when she met Jamie, she was a woman....big difference!

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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Thu 23 Apr - 21:48:38

"Funny how we all process things differently as that wasn't my take on it - but then I've read so many articles that I may have jumbled them all together"

Dear Ayrlassie it is interesting isn't it. I so enjoy interacting with all of you and getting your perspective on the episodes and books. I look forward to it and it brightens my day.
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Re: General Chat

Post by logo1960. on Thu 23 Apr - 22:30:19

I have just read all the post quickly but with ease, thank you. I still have not watched Ep11 do I need to? I have read it all here.
Thank you. cheers
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Thu 23 Apr - 23:31:55

lochness wrote:

Dear Ayrlassie it is interesting isn't it. I so enjoy interacting with all of you and getting your perspective on the episodes and books. I look forward to it and it brightens my day.

Yes, that is what makes the interaction on this forum so enjoyable - so glad we're all here!  We don't always agree but then that would be BORING Wink

I'm not sure how to quote two people - that would be you Lorraine - so in order not to post back to back.....cause I'm not as 'smooth' as lochness Smile ........yes, you do have to watch episode 11 because there's not quite enough opinions here lol!

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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Fri 24 Apr - 2:35:33

I'm not sure how to quote two people - that would be you Lorraine - so in order not to post back to back.....cause I'm not as 'smooth' as lochness Smile ........yes, you do have to watch episode 11 because there's not quite enough opinions here

Dear Ayrlassie my "smooth" is much over rated.
Dear Logo I agree you need to watch the episode. That way you can see how they all totally missed the point. I am trying to be magnanimous here Wink
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Fri 24 Apr - 3:19:13

lochness wrote:

Dear Ayrlassie it is interesting isn't it. I so enjoy interacting with all of you and getting your perspective on the episodes and books. I look forward to it and it brightens my day.

Dear lochness

I've said before - although maybe not on this thread - that I will always go to the books for the true interpretation of Diana's vision but do enjoy the visual of Ron Moore's adaption, even though there are deviations.  I guess we will agree to disagree on the adaption -  in my view there are many written scenes that cannot transfer to the screen within the parameters of an hour show -  and that is democracy as we know it.  If there are non book readers viewing the series - and I'm sure there are many.....they can certainly buy the books for more clarification!

Just noticed that I totally messed up on the 'quote' - meant it to be on the magnanimous part of your comment - my bad! Hope it makes more sense now....or maybe not! surprised


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Re: General Chat

Post by Aikman Lass on Fri 24 Apr - 3:26:56

[quote="lochness"]  I believe this production still can be put back on tract.  I remain optimistic that they will in the end get this right.

Hi lochnes:  You're fortunate that you can be optimistic but for me I just see the show going further away from the story. Wouldn't it be amazing though if the producers acknowledge their mistakes & redeem themselves by correcting future shows?

....it’s the influence of Claire herself that creates the Jamie we all love

lochness - my impressions (from the book) Jamie was already well rounded by female influence...as well as male...he was the product of a love marriage (not arranged) so grew up with a perfect example of a wholesome, loving & equal relationship as his guide.  Mold shapers - mother Ellen (1-8 yrs) followed by Jenny as 'lady of the house', the female maids in the house, Dougal's wife Maura and Column's wife Letitia.  Jamie’s character was also influenced by strong men... father Brian a wise man of his time who gave Jamie his strength, morals and skills, weapons skills & also an understanding & respect of women.  I also saw Colum as an intelligent grounded man that would have influenced Jamie.  Dougal not a moral man but a fighting man that educated Jamie in battle skills. Last we should not forget he’s lifelong companion Murtagh older man with years of experience, the man who has always followed, served & protected Jamie & giving sage advice.  I think this made the young man we love.  Interestingly your idea that women choose the men....One of Ellen’s sage bits of knowledge to her son was “that women chose the man”......and Claire chose Jamie!

when this crew deprives us of the interactions of J&C so profoundly we're left with a very flat landscape to view.
...I agree completely!

Claire since her first interaction with Jamie has been teaching him how to live with a significant, powerful and smart female and he needs this to complete his trip to manhood. Claire may appear at times to demur a decision to her husband but we all know whose  the boss in the bedroom.

(book again)..My impressions...a bit different...People had to grow up fast back then & I saw a man who was strong, mature, wise and self-assured, I often forgot he was so young.  I think if anything he taught Claire a few things.  Jamie already had experience with strong powerful women in his life. Claire asserted herself as she would in her time period but is learning to respect & heed  Jamie's judgement because she now lives in the 18th C....As to the bedroom....In one scene Jamie says something so stirring that it always sends shivers down my back - “Oh aye Sassenach I am your master...and you’re mine. Seems I canna posses your soul without losing mine”.  Whose the Boss now??

Not amazing observations but mine nonetheless.
Regards
Aikman Lass  

Aikman Lass
Wee Hamish

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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Fri 24 Apr - 13:11:03

Dear Aikman Lass

Thanks for your observations. I agree that Jamie had female direction growing up but I still feel that Claire is something totally different. For Jamie she is his soul mate someone who can affect and influence him far beyond other females. We are watching his maturation right before our eyes and a lot of what's rounding him into being the person he is becoming is Claire. When she finds him he's running with the other immature males not yet ready for his role in life. Yes partly from circumstance but also from maturity as well. He' has the makings of a great leader and warrior but lacks the development of the lover. The makings are there but for completion they require Claire hand. Saying they are equal in the bedroom is not to acknowledge the true master there. Perhaps women are intimidated by sheer muscle and physique but make no mistake females dictate the rules of engagement of the bedroom short of rape.

Dear All. I watched episode 111 last night again with my wife. We can both now say that we don't know why Claire stayed. According to what we saw with this production it makes no sense. Without the book for benefit by staying Claire is facing challenges and threats to her well being that far outweigh any attraction established so far in the production. If Jamie and Frank are now about equal in her eyes as far as lovers and soul mates why would she stay to face all these threats? Just to preserve Jamie from her loss that Frank went through? Hardly in my opinion it's to flipping dangerous!
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lochness
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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Fri 24 Apr - 14:37:35

Dear Logo please excuse this "back to back" post but I think this is important.

Dear Sonia,Aikman lass, Shagur, Ayrlassie & All

I can understand where you are coming from with Claire and what this means to Jamie's maturation and maturing as a male but lets look at the facts and why Claire is the only one who can bring Jamie to completion as Lover and Warrior. Jamie in the beginning of their relationship just can't get enough of Claire and tells her so. "I want you so bad I can scarcely breathe". Basically he can't get enough of her to fulfill his wanting her but folks this is lust not love. It leads to rape at Leoch and Claire's observation that give him what he wants and he's nice deny him and look out. What is happening before and during this is Claire begins to exert her influence sometimes subtly but often right in his face. Jamie will learn what the difference is between lust and love and his teacher is Claire. There can be no question on this. She takes the boy and helps him grow to be man. The kind of man we can appreciate as Claire's partner. So ladies he entered an immature lad and becomes all that we see under the direction of his soul mate and lover Claire.
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