General Chat

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Re: General Chat

Post by Shagur on Mon 20 Apr - 15:35:39

So, finally got some time to write about what I´m thinking about ep. 111…
I LOVED THAT EPISODE !!!
Cannot share the complaints about it (not so much here in this forum but some reactions to reviews, IMBD Board…)
My only complaint is that the episode just was 55 minutes, way too short. The witch-trial was fantastic, I would not have liked it shorter but the episode 15 minutes longer for the part at the stones…
.
Moved my "Favorite moments" to the other topic ...

Finally, Claires husky voice „On your feet, soldier“. Lots of people don´t like that line; but for me, it fits well. It refers to ep.1 when Jamie (in the book) falls in love with Claire, and at this point Claire realizes that she´s in love with Jamie. I think it also might be a phrase Claire used as a combat nurse in 1945. To me, it´s like „Let´s go on“ after her struggle, her personal combat. She´s made her decision and at this moment she doesnot want to look back, just going foreward.
In one scene I´m undetermined: why does Claire not say Goodbye to Jamie before trying to touch the stone? She didn´t know where Jamie brought her, that they were so close to  he stones, that he wanted to send her back to her own time. Is it because she is so much exhausted emotionally that she cannot think and just reacts with her body, curious if the stones will still work?
@Sonia: The last scene I did find, too, totally rushed! Yes, that´s true. Let´s hope they open ep. 112 with an extend to that scene.  Claire debating inside herself  hmmm…they could have done that only a voiceover and I don´t know if I would have liked that…
@ lochness "Is there nothing for me here Jamie?"  I missed that too, but their faces showed so much emotion (or Jamie trying to hide his feelings), so I´m ok with the scene.
At this point they can't sell Claire's attempt at rescuing Jaime at Wentworth except that she needs him to protect her and deliver great sex. I might bee jaundiced because I love the books and want to become the series a huge success so that we´ll have all of Dianas books filmed… so I really try to seperate book and TV series. For me, Claire struggles with herself about falling in love with Jamie (beeing married to Frank, „I´ll always come back to you, Frank“); she does not want to commit it to Geilis in the thieves hole as she perhaps still doesn´t want to fully  commit it to herself, her feelings still surprise herself. But her reaction when Geilis asks her if she loves ginger-Jamie because she cries his name when she´s asleep …she cannot deny it to herself anymore.
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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Mon 20 Apr - 16:18:44

Dear Shagur thanks for posting so I won't get Logo's ire by going back to back.

Dear All

I do enjoy any opportunity to watch my favorite series in any media I can get it in however this production team has made some really questionable choices. At almost every opportunity they have chosen to handcuff Claire and her feelings towards Jamie. They have made deliberate choices not just in this episode alone that have eliminated encounters between J&C that would have gone a long way to bridging the gap that now exists in reality and perception. I am thinking of the scene on the road in episode 9 when Jamie becomes a lot closer to his woman as he relates his own whipping experiences and how he reacted to them. The deal about the ring and the way that bedroom scene came off without the emotional quotient from an exhausted Claire obsessing over where Jamie went and who he is with only to yes confront him and learn his true feelings towards her. Instead we had a woman who has a real negative attitude in the bed chamber with a Jamie willing to do almost anything to get back in the sack with her. What have we lost? Plenty because Jamie in reality meets Claire head on in the book as an equal who is faced with a wife who really very very vulnerable. There are more. Each choice not to develop the relationship between J&C in this production is causing a believability gap in the show. If this isn't fixed very soon this will cause huge unrepairable damage and lose the audience that has not read the books.
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Re: General Chat

Post by Pia on Mon 20 Apr - 16:25:26

Hi soniaG

I think, that for me, the book just comes first. At least for this episode Smile

For me the episode of Claire and Geillis in the old well and during the trial was the time, when they truly bonded, which affects their relationsship and certain situations later on, and made Geillis sacrifice herself for Claire, once she found out who Claire is. For me this episode is important regarding to future events for both Ladies and it just was better written in the book.

Yes, it did cover the history but I think that the shortcuts and unnecessary new additions didn't catch the underlying currents between Claire and Geillis.It just felt as another story, you know? I missed the happy birthday, too Smile

Mind, I don't need the book and the Tv show to be the same through and through, but here I would like them to have kept closer to the original story. IMHO Smile

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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Mon 20 Apr - 16:26:48

I've already put my initial thoughts on the episode under Favorite and Least Favorite scenes so will not repeat here....suffice to say that I _did_ like this episode!

After reading some of the posts here I must agree with some of the remarks i.e. from "Lochness....missed Claire saying to Jamie "Is there really nothing here for me?"  
I agree with Shagur's remark - that their expressions conveyed how emotional it was for both of them but I missed that too.

I'm trying not to compare book vs. series as it will drive me crazy I think!!!  Crazier than I already am Wink

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Re: General Chat

Post by Shagur on Mon 20 Apr - 16:37:33

Pia wrote:

I missed the happy birthday, too Smile

Hi Pia,
the TV series had to slide the time of the year for 6 month compared to the books because they started filming in fall (Claire falls through the stones on 1st november, in the books its may). As they do a lot of the filming outside, they could not follow the book in this detail. Claires birthday is in october, and in the TV series it´s january now.
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Re: General Chat

Post by Pia on Mon 20 Apr - 16:47:52

Hi shagur

I do understand that there has to be modifications, the books being so big, and full of details.
But some details are more important than others, which is of course different from person to person Smile

Some of the new invents in the tv shows as story bridges are also genious but some just alter the the story to something I cannot recognise. As there is so much to find in the books, the new additions feel sometimes unnecessary.

But it's still just a minor detail, I have loved the most of the episodes and look forward to see the next one Smile

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Re: General Chat

Post by Shagur on Mon 20 Apr - 18:09:23

Pia wrote:
But some details are more important than others, which is of course different from person to person Smile
You´re so right! Yes, I also miss scenes and favorite lines from the books, but then I think Ron and his crew have a lot of experience in making TV.

@ lochness: I personally love the long dialogues between Claire and Jamie, but just imagine Jamie telling Claire of him being beaten when he was a boy. When I read that scene, I imagined a young Jamie, discussing with his father, I visualized him bending over the fence.  How should they transfer that to TV? Film it with a very young actor / boy (and by the way have discussions all over about beating of children being in no way acceptable, as is the spanking of wifes…)? Or should Jamie just tell Claire about it? I think, they could let him speak a few lines about it, but that would not be long enough to make a good scene, but having him doing a several minutes – more or less - monologue would have no good outcome in TV; too slow, too boring for many viewers I expect, (mostly for the male viewers?) and they do want to be attractive to male viewers as well as to non-book readers AND to the book-fans.
I do not want to just defend Ron & writers, but we have to be aware (as Diana repeats to say) that TV and books are very different mediums and that often something that works fine in the books doesnot work on TV and vice versa.
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Re: General Chat

Post by soniaG on Mon 20 Apr - 18:09:52

Dear Lochness, Shagur, Ayrlassie, Pia ..

.. I´ve read all your comments! A lot .. wow!

Well, dear Lochness, as much I do understand you I must say .. that I do think that you don´t need really bother that this TV show has no success. On all the other boards/forum I visited so far (quite a few) this show get lots of love. Yes, they are debating a lot but the overall thing is they in love with Cat and Sam.

And about this special episode (the witch trial as it is called now) ... there is almost no critic out there!

But I can understand that you are disappointed! I must say I have totally stopped to make any comparison with the books anymore ...

However I agree with you .. that they show did not so much spend time of the bonding time between J&C. For me is the tweaking so many things crucial for this show. For example: it doesn´t fit at all that Jamie is so keen on going home because there are reasons for it .. another big change in my eyes.

Several husbands on other forums (who don´t know) the books are totally confused why Claire chose Jamie and why. And they even question what there is between J&C emotionally? I would wonder,too, if I didn´t know the books. Only my opinion.

Regarding your critics .. I will make another post in the other topic what I do like and what I don´t like or  I do find the acting is not so good .. Wink

Well, I have right now probs also with "On Your Feet, Soldier"

@Shagur, thank you very much for your explanation regarding this sentence why you like it and why you do find it suitable. I just watched some scenes of episode 1 again and now I get what you mean.
I am sorry to say I still don´t like it! It´s for me too military wording .. she is no his chief .. she is his wife, his lover and friend - well, that is quite not sure in the TV show - not his chief) ... there for sure are much more tender words out there to express feelings?

This last scene .. there I am missing much more emotions .. original sentences (not because it is in the book but because it would much more transport the reason why Claire decided to stay).

Right now I have the understanding she stays because she would miss him but she is fearing the passage/journey back .. through the stone. Just my impression. Wink

Further, dear Shagur .. why she didn´t say good-bye before touching the stone .. like you already have suspected .. I would also interpret .. her body is quicker reacting before she has time to think! And she is exhaused and - my guess - perplexed to find herself near the stone again. Jamie bringing her back .. was a big surprise for her .. Wink

Your explanations re "The Thieves Hole" .. yeah .. plausible! For me she didn´t probably didn´t say it to give not so much away .. before the stone scene .. Wink
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Re: General Chat

Post by Misty Blue on Mon 20 Apr - 19:06:01

lochness so relieved it wasn't just me, I was beginning to think I was just being ultra picky regarding Episode 11! Prior to watching, I had hoped the Craigh na Dun scenes would dominate this episode time wise, because it is such a pivotal moment in the story, instead the opposite happened. The Witch Trial (40 mins approx) leaving just under 20 mins for these 'epic' scenes. I too missed that line "is there really nothing for me here Jamie" & J & C discussing her age & birthday.
I had already guessed right, in that they would use the vaccination scar to represent 'the Devil's mark' at the Witch Trial, & I understand this was an opportunity to highlight the connection's between Claire & Gellis, (re: their conversation's in the theives hole), but personally, I just thought they could have devoted equal time to both aspect's.
Watching the episode again, I have come to term's with the second half, & those scene's between Claire & Jamie 'were' sensational! The acting throughout the whole episode was MAGNIFICENT, but Sam & Caitriona well, they were outstanding, "STUPENDOUS"!!! The raw, vibrant, heart-rendering emotion, passion, need, & utter devotion that resonated from that screen took your breath away.
And I'm putting faith in what Diana said that some line's crop up in alternative scene's to the book.
I 'truly do' adore this series, & am LOVING every minute, hence the excitement each week! Perhaps this week I simply let "my emotions" get the better of me, & this is just a minor criticism. For I never shall forget or underestimate how privileged we are to be able to watch this series. Smile
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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Mon 20 Apr - 19:59:12

"I do not want to just defend Ron & writers, but we have to be aware (as Diana repeats to say) that TV and books are very different mediums and that often something that works fine in the books doesnot work on TV and vice versa."

Dear Shagur thanks for your reply. I am aware of that but I wonder just how far they can go with this until they form and develop that relationship. Right now it is very one dimensional being based on great sex and little else. No wonder non book readers are confused as to why she chose Jamie. I agree that episode 112 would be a good place to get this done and hopefully they will.
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Re: General Chat

Post by soniaG on Mon 20 Apr - 20:03:11

Dear Misty Blue and Lochness,

I still have to think how do I see the episode .. I had today such a crazy day and yesterday was busy with preparing this day ..

.. so there was not much time to think about it.

Misty Blue  .. I am with you .. the trial part could have been  much shorter! I agree .. all the scenes around the stone and going back or not was too short, much to short! Especially after the decision Claire made ..


Lochness .. yeah, you are right ... the falling in love from Claire side is not there .. really .. other than in making love to him..  Thank you for making it more aware ... visible for me .. from Jamie´s side we see a lot .. we know he is in love ..

P.S.:

Another question I do have for the female ones .. did any one of you had problems to watch/stomach the witch trail? For me it was difficult .. how about you?

And I am missing .. scenes of Claire and Jamie with which they bond as friends .. Wink


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Re: General Chat

Post by Shagur on Mon 20 Apr - 20:19:20

soniaG wrote:
Another question I do have for the female ones .. did any one of you had problems to watch/stomach the witch trail? For me it was difficult .. how about you?
Sonia, yes it was in some way not easy to watch. Even knowing Claire was going to rescued, I just thought that such trials really happened in the european history; women accused of being witches, no chance to defend themselves, not allowed to speak to the judges, having no rights at all; the mob eager to burn them for sensation. People you considered as friends, people you helped, turned against you. The rule of the church. It´s no fiction, it´s real history.
I thought, if I had lived at that time, such thing could have happened to every woman, could have happened to me; I really consider me lucky to live now and here!  And that is one reason why I do think 40 minutes for the witch trial is ok, it was so intense!

Hope you can relax now from your busy day! Smile
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Re: General Chat

Post by soniaG on Mon 20 Apr - 20:28:57

Shagur wrote:
Sonia, yes it was in some way not easy to watch. ... People you considered as friends, people you helped, turned against you. The rule of the church. It´s no fiction, it´s real history.
...  And that is one reason why I do think 40 minutes for the witch trial is ok, it was so intense!

Hope you can relax now from your busy day! Smile

Ah, dear Shagur,

I am relieved that I am not alone! Exclamation

For me it is very painful to watch it. All the time I am shouting inwardly .. No No pls don´t say more, Claire and at the same time I know I would be furious if someone would confess something I´ve never done or said.  I would have gone crazy pale confused Evil or Very Mad being there in front of the people who wanna see me death. And while watching I feel like I am there. I can´t it rewatch more than one time ..

As a side information: the witch trial was shot in a real church and they let each shot play out very long .. the people - also sitting uncomfortable on the small benches were really eager to be there. Maybe an echo of the time ?

Re my day .. well, thank you! I will hopefully get a good night sleep .. Wink
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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Mon 20 Apr - 21:18:04

The stones scene is one of the most critical in convincing readers that Claire is indeed torn and just maybe prefers Jamie to Frank. It's really a unclear in the rest of the episodes if she likes Jamie for anything else then sex and protection. Without developing this moment properly we are left adrift particularly if one has never read the books. So we'll see what the film crew comes up with. In my opinion because they missed a great opportunity to cover this they will need to devote episode 12 to it. That remains to be seen however as Jamie will need to spend plenty of time with Jenny and reconnecting. Again it's a shame that this opportunity was missed.
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Re: General Chat

Post by soniaG on Mon 20 Apr - 21:41:11

Dear Lochness,

the more and the more I am thinking about the stone scenes I must say .. I am confused .. if I only take the TV show scenes I would myself not understand why Claire stayed .. so I agree here with you!

I do think that we book people automatically fill in the blanks .. but what to the only viewer do and who don´t have a wife or husband beside them sitting and explaining this series?

I am wondering how many of the viewers of STARZ Outlander are the fan base and how many are the ones who never have heard before of it? What do you think? 50/50 or 60/40 or or with 26 millions books sold worldwide round about ..

And I find it not plausible that Claire could have travelled again .. well, yes, there was the noise but would people recognize it from episode one?


Dear all,

just found the fb page of Outlander Brazil. They are even starting to open up the first Outlander fan page .. Wink

Is it not interesting .. they discussing there the same as we are here! Isn´t this crazy ??? And there all also people who are fearing the upcoming episode ..

I browsed the net for a new and more detailed episode 12 trailer .. but still did not found nothing .. so far.


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Re: General Chat

Post by Misty Blue on Mon 20 Apr - 22:15:22

Dear lochness & soniaG like you I agree the Craigh na Dun scenes were the perfect opportunity to highlight to an audience (who haven't read the book's) the deep & growing bond Claire & Jamie now share. Leaving aside the intense, extraordinary, chemistry they share physically, they could have focused on the trusted friendship they have come to develop. They touched on the "honesty between us" speech, but in the scene where Claire is analysing her two wedding ring's, they could have used this as a means for her to reflect on her marriage to Frank, & then to Jamie. Maybe in scenes of a 'quick flashback' over both married lives. Yes I know, this would be time consuming & expensive to film, just would have shown in greater detail, her dilemma, & perspective.
As Pia rightfully says "some aspects are more important than others - people to people".
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Re: General Chat

Post by logo1960. on Mon 20 Apr - 22:30:41

Lochness would you upset me? Wink it is just I find it hard to follow back to back post. I am finding this so much easier to follow now. and there is me yet to see episode 11.
I enjoy the reading of your post just as much . grouphug

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Re: General Chat

Post by karelynnCDN on Mon 20 Apr - 22:44:49

I have watched the show through twice now and first of all wish to say kudos to Bill Paterson for his portrayal of Ned Gowan. I always liked this character in the book but Bill's acting has taken this character to a whole new and beloved level for me. Thank you Sir !!!
I too was surprised by the brevity of the scene at the stones, even the brevity of Claire's explanation to Jamie and his full reaction. It seems a very pivotal point in the story.
That said, I believe a lot was conveyed by the actors in the final scene with very little words. First, Jamie looked so young lying by the fire asleep. This view seemed to me to show part of Claire's decision to stay. Frank in the first episodes always seemed so solitary, so self-sufficient, perhaps arising out of their enforced separation early in their marriage due to WW II. But I think Claire knew and sensed that while Jamie was a fully grown responsible adult, had to be at an early age in 1700s, he needed her in a way that Frank never would, and that is a powerful draw and connection. Second, when she says "On your feet, soldier !" she is signalling that her choice is made and they are not going to dwell on it anymore. Third, she further emphasizes her choice by asking Jamie to take her 'home' to Lallybroch.
So, the filmmakers did what they always have to do, say a lot in as little time as they can to move the story along.
I guess if we fans wish to linger, we can always go back to the book and linger to our heart's content.

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Re: General Chat

Post by Teasle11 on Tue 21 Apr - 0:28:27

I really enjoy seeing other OL fans perspective of the show. I loved almost every minute of it and can't believe how well they've done. I did feel a bit cheated at the stones, I wanted him to see and really believe her, as well as see more of her conflict. I was sorry when there wasn't more made of the reunion scene (I still feel that way about the ending of MOBY!) But I have faith that we may see some explanations or lines appear later.
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Tue 21 Apr - 0:46:35

karelynnCDN wrote:
I too was surprised by the brevity of the scene at the stones, even the brevity of Claire's explanation to Jamie and his full reaction.  It seems a very pivotal point in the story.
That said, I believe a lot was conveyed by the actors in the final scene with very little words.  First, Jamie looked so young lying by the fire asleep.  This view seemed to me to show part of Claire's decision to stay.  Frank in the first episodes always seemed so solitary, so self-sufficient, perhaps arising out of their enforced separation early in their marriage due to WW II.  But I think Claire knew and sensed that while Jamie was a fully grown responsible adult, had to be at an early age in 1700s, he needed her in a way that Frank never would, and that is a powerful draw and connection.  Second, when she says "On your feet, soldier !" she is signalling that her choice is made and they are not going to dwell on it anymore.  Third, she further emphasizes her choice by asking Jamie to take her 'home' to Lallybroch.
So, the filmmakers did what they always have to do, say a lot in as little time as they can to move the story along.
I guess if we fans wish to linger, we can always go back to the book and linger to our heart's content.

My feelings exactly KarelynnCDN - we all see these scenes from our own perspective and I, for one, appreciate the difference of opinions.  As I said in an earlier post....somewhere....I've stopped comparing the book to the series and just try to take it for what it's worth otherwise I'd go crazy comparing the two!  The "I guess I'm going to a f&#king barbeque" line by Geillis was brilliant IMO!

My question would be why this episode was 5 minutes shorter than the other ones?  It doesn't make sense given the importance in what needed to be conveyed - just saying!  Diana has said that the Series is telling some of the back story that isn't in the book - I've seen it in some episodes but not this one.  Anyone?  Sheesh, I'm comparing book to series aren't I?  Guess I've gone completely mad now Wink


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Re: General Chat

Post by Misty Blue on Tue 21 Apr - 2:09:16

I agree ayrlassie, the Geillis line was so unexpected, but just fantastic.  As soon as she'd said it, it just confirmed she was from 'the future', if we hadn't known that already.   Such a modern sounding phrase! T-Shirts being printed as we speak!

With regard's to the back story & Episode 11, the way Laoghaire hound's Claire before & during the Trial, it highlight's to me the fact her admiration of James Fraser is completely obsessive.  Unhealthily so.
WARNING SPOILER ALERT!!!
When Claire return's to Jamie in Voyager, she is eventually forced to face the reality that Jamie married Laoghaire in her absence, (with considerable influence from Jenny of course).  Was that always Laoghaires intention.  To try & command Jamie's heart, no matter what the cost, & despite the fact, Jamie & Claire's soul's are united by a bond greater than anything earth bound, it did not deter the 'young wench'.  In Episode 11, are we seeing Laoghaires infatuation gain momentum - just a thought.  Now whose the crazy one Norma? - HE-HE!!!
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Tue 21 Apr - 3:39:24

I'd almost finished my reply to you Debbie....and then poof....gone...JHRC!

I'd buy that t-shirt for sure Wink

Back to Leghair (I refuse to spell her name correctly).  I remember what it was like to be that age - uncertainty, jealousy, and immaturity - not fun.  But I can't imagine myself _ever_ behaving in that manner, to wish someone to die and dance on their ashes.! Quite frankly she never matures past that point from the Trial even in her 40's when she marries Jamie....she wanted him but couldn't commit to what a marriage is.....respect, intimacy and honesty.  Good!  Little B*%ch - she got what she deserved - IMHO.  Whew....that got a load off Wink  

I feel better now..... excited happy

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Re: General Chat

Post by Aikman Lass on Tue 21 Apr - 4:38:30

karelynnCDN wrote: First, Jamie looked so young lying by the fire asleep.  This view seemed to me to show part of Claire's decision to stay.  Frank in the first episodes always seemed so solitary, so self-sufficient, perhaps arising out of their enforced separation early in their marriage due to WW II.  But I think Claire knew and sensed that while Jamie was a fully grown responsible adult, had to be at an early age in 1700s, he needed her in a way that Frank never would, and that is a powerful draw and connection.

Hi karelynn: Like you I have read Diana's books a few times and now watching the show. Your theory on why Claire chose to stay is more than possible. My own thoughts are more simple Claire fell in love with Jamie and it was a greater love than what she felt for Frank. I remember in the early part of the book the kilted figure standing in the rain watching Claire in the window (Jamie) and I feel this love was destiny for these two people. 

Second, when she says "On your feet, soldier !" she is signalling that her choice is made and they are not going to dwell on it anymore.  Third, she further emphasizes her choice by asking Jamie to take her 'home' to Lallybroch.
So, the filmmakers did what they always have to do, say a lot in as little time as they can to move the story along.
I guess if we fans wish to linger, we can always go back to the book and linger to our heart's content.

I personally think the producers lost...shall I say 'their moral compass' when they had Claire say "On your feet, soldier!" This ending to Episode 11 left me with a very cold feeling. Where was the love & joy! I much prefer the images of Jamie's shock, he and Claire falling off the settle, the passionate kissing, the joy of their bodies touching and wanting nothing more than to stay there forever feeling the heart beat against the ribs, not making love, just breathing the same air.   To me this feels like.....L O V E.........!

I agree that the fans of the written story will always return to our books but it is because Diana's writing has touched our souls. Just my own thoughts.

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Aikman Lass

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Wee Hamish

Posts : 198
Join date : 2014-09-01
Location : Ontario, Canada

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Re: General Chat

Post by Shagur on Tue 21 Apr - 7:44:54

Do you all remember the trailer for the second half of season one?  There´s a line said by Claire in a very emotional voice, “I never counted on loving you”, I think it would fit perfectly into a scene just after the kiss. Perhaps that is from the beginning of ep.12,  – let´s hope (and trust in the producers  Wink  ) they put some of the books dialogue in (I love Jamies words about praying not for Claire to stay but to have the strength to let her go – one of my favourite lines!) And yes, Claires line about the hot bath would be nice too; let´s hope Diana fought for it!  Wink
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Shagur
Wee Hamish

Posts : 137
Join date : 2014-08-28
Location : Austria

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Re: General Chat

Post by OutlanderTVSeries on Tue 21 Apr - 10:47:43

lochness wrote:The stones scene is one of the most critical in convincing readers that Claire is indeed torn and just maybe prefers Jamie to Frank. It's really a unclear in the rest of the episodes if she likes Jamie for anything else then sex and protection.

She could have both - sex and protection - with Frank. So why stay?

Like some of you too, I think, they should have lost less time with the trial and spend more time with the stone-scene (and other dialoge-scenes between J&C).
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OutlanderTVSeries
Wee Jamie

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Join date : 2015-03-30
Age : 27
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Re: General Chat

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