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Re: General Chat

Post by soniaG on Fri 24 Apr - 18:55:04

Dear Lochness,
well, I must say I can´t follow you right now .. but I leave the discussion to you and others .. Wink !  

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Dear others and dear Aikman Lass,
I want to say something about all the ones who are sometimes or with each episode disappointed how the TV story line goes and offer my own theories, thoughts and observations I´ve made.

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But first of all, it is also high times .. to start to discuss the TV show without the book eyes .. if this is even possible .. Wink Maybe better in an extra overall topic where we can all til now aired episodes? Just an idea .. Wink


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Dear Aikman Lass et al,


Aikman Lass wrote:
Like you I see that the book and the TV show are no longer the same....one thing I don't enjoy though is the confusion  confused  when I'm seeing or hearing things that don't fit in my mind. I find myself reaching for the Outlander to refresh the actual scenes I know so well.
Aikman Lass  [/color]

But back to what I want to say already since a few days:

I do think the problem with all the disappointment and the disagreement with those who aren´t disappointed at all or not much lies therein how we all process information/pictures we get!

Pat D in the CompuServe Forum has put it his way and I do find it very true:

“I wonder if the different ways people intake information (written, visual, aural, etc.) makes a difference in how they're dealing with the book to video transition?  Whether the science of the brain is playing a role in dealing with the changes.”  

I do strongly believe therein lies the problem. I have taken my time to write down my own disappointment with techniques like non-violent communication and the Work from Byron Katie and did find out .. that my brain is doing the following while watching and in general with all kind of information I gained till this year:

While watching each episode for the first time my brain system instantly is comparing the received info with all the info I gained over the years by reading the books, discussing them, listening to what DG has to say. This it does without I have asked for and there is no button to tell it .. stop please!

At the same time it is asking me what it now the real story (I might assume, dear Aikman Lass something similar happens to you and maybe to others here, too?!). This makes me nervous, I am getting confused and not really calm (my mind is very strong) inside.

So I am caught between comparing new versus old information and wanting to watch and somehow enjoy the TV show. What this make it all a little bit more confusing is that Ron was clever and rearranged lots of pieces from the whole book one and also some pieces from book two.

As I am well familiar with the books but don´t know them word by word by heart (I did just find out I forget a whole lot things) I am also beginning to mix up the TV story line with the book story line.

And somehow on the run the inner confusion starts to change into anger and disappointment.

So, some of you may now ask .. well, okay, probably we are all doing this inside our self but why is this so a problem? Well, I did find out one of my most used relaxing tools are books and sometimes TV watching! And getting confused while reading again the so much loved books is the least thing I wanted to have happening. Wink

And another thing plays also a role: DG has somehow hinted several times (unfortunately I don´t have real references) that with the TV show we get quasi some new background info. And know my brain is trying additionally to sort out what is now the NEW background info DG means.

Do you could follow me to this point?

My anger and disappointments are feelings because my brain got confused and me .. I want just relax .. not comparing any given info or storylines while reading or watching TV. The overall need is to enjoy and to relax and to learn through reading more about these complex characters DG has developed and to collect all tiny new insight which might in the TV series from Starz.

What I do now or what can I do to avoid anger etc.?

Well, I allow me all kind of feelings, write it down, write down, what I do like and like this the feelings of anger, frustration etc. are changing. Second I follow the CompuServe Forum and often good explanation why this or that was rearranged and to find out if others are feeling the same. And then I discuss it with you and step by step my overall impressions are getting better and at the same time I read the corresponding chapters of the book.

I did this explain en detail in order to say .. our brain system is not working all the same. We are all processing information differently. And this makes each of one unique. And I wanted to inspire all those who are again and again disappointed with how the TV series goes .. to ask them what would be different if they would get the TV show like they want to. What would be different? Would they enjoy more the books or dive more in the books story or what? And do you really think or fear that the overall reactions is something else than praise and enjoyment? The answer can help to let go anger, frustration, confusion and disappointment..

So .. well, a long post .. I do know .. Wink Enjoy it or skip it .. it is up to you .. lol!

What do you think?
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Fri 24 Apr - 19:53:16

Wow.....how very fascinating to watch you put into words your thought process!  Kudos to you - I couldn't even try to do that.  It was very easy to follow and understand.  I LOVE it Sonia!!


I've said before how disappointed I've been about certain scenes but have come to the point now where the book and series are two separate entities for me and I will enjoy them and not compare.

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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Fri 24 Apr - 19:54:39

I do think the problem with all the disappointment and the disagreement with those who aren´t disappointed at all or not much lies therein how we all process information/pictures we get!

Dear Sonia there is no question about some of this. We all have different ways we learn. Some of us are tactile learners while others are more visual and finally still others learn more effectively through auditory. I can also see how this applies to the example from Aikman lass. However this only can go so far. A lot of the problems from Book to screen are decisions made that change relationships particularly when it applies to J&C. For instance we all realize that the scene at the stones lacked dialogue along with the emotions and when dialogue was inserted it was found lacking. When Claire calls out to Jaime just before he leaves and says a heart felt goodbye its just doesn't work here for many reasons which have nothing to do with Cait's delivery. That line has problems because it can't sell what follows during Claire's final decision at the stones. Its got nothing to do with how we learn or perceive it has everything to do with whats lacking in the series. So I agree that your illustration does apply but I don't believe thats the biggest reason for the disconnect occurring. As always great dialogue and observations.
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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Fri 24 Apr - 21:33:15

Ladies

This makes a lot more sense from Cait about Frank versus Jamie and how that dynamic worked with Claire's decision making. Perhaps the TV series can work on getting this point across to their audience! We can only hope.

http://decider.com/2015/04/21/outlander-caitriona-balfe-claire-frank-versus-jamie/
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Fri 24 Apr - 21:52:12

ayrlassie wrote: I saw a clip of Cait where she is speaking about how, when she married Frank she was still a girl and when she met Jamie, she was a woman....big difference!

Dear lochness,

Thank you for finding and posting - exactly the clip and article I was referring to!

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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Fri 24 Apr - 22:12:10



Thank you for finding and posting - exactly the clip and article I was referring to![/quote]

Dear Ayrlassie I knew I had read a response about that but couldn't place it. Your welcome I agree it certainly is a big difference. On the subject Claire's relationship with Frank suffered also from the separation and of course she disappeared during their second honeymoon thus affecting anything that may have come when they were reunited after the war. I could never warm up to Frank as far as being Claire's partner. It seemed so ironic when she told him just before she traveled through the stones that nothing he could do would ever keep her from loving him. Perhaps thats true in a sense from reading the books in the series because a part of Claire never stopped loving him.
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Re: General Chat

Post by Shagur on Fri 24 Apr - 22:24:07

Dear Sonia, WOW, very well said!
I´m glad you found a way for not getting confused too much any further.  hug
As you said, everyone intakes information different. I personally hardly watch TV at all, so the visual impression is very intense to me. Perhaps hence I´m not so critical?
My approach to missing or much too short scenes / lines is that unfortunately there is not enough time in the episodes to show all our beloved scenes. If Ron had 90 minutes per episode, or had he not 16 but 25 episodes …?  I´m enjoying what I see on TV and the missing (of a bit different) parts still exist in my head, in the books, I just do not see them now in the series.
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Re: General Chat

Post by bear on Fri 24 Apr - 22:25:56

lochness, I have only just discovered you and your opinions! And I very much enjoy them, as you are not just whining but posting some valid points. I tend to stay away from all the opinions posts, but wandered over here seeing that the lovely Ayrlassie and Sonia have posted often. I do agree with much of what you are saying about not building on the great love that Claire and Jamie are forming (this after all being the real reason I was drawn into the book series and stayed!) However, despite the inclusions of extra scenes or the missing quotes we all are so endearingly familiar with, They are doing a pretty bang up job so far and I look forward to each new episode thus far..
I will say the trial scene with Father Baines and lagohaire, had me quite stirred up! And Ned was wonderful.
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Fri 24 Apr - 22:57:08

Dear lochness,

No, she never did stop loving Frank and I think that alludes to him being her 1st love, something we never forget.  She fell in love and married him when she was 19 years old and went from her Uncles protection to Frank's, he and she were never equals - I believe he was at least 10 years older, and so there's a big imbalance of power. They were married in 1937 and then war broke out in '39 so they were still basically in the honeymoon phase when separated by the war and never got down to the everyday routine and familiarity, we don't know what their life was like before but I can imagine that Frank might have been very rigid and a bit condescending to his much younger wife. We kind of know from DIA but that's not really fair is it, to compare with what might have been before?

With Jamie there's an internal dialogue in the Master Me scene in the book which as book readers we're all familiar with.....'Frank never did learn that'....which says to me that she's found someone in Jamie that is her equal, someone willing to really find out who she is and explore further, becoming her soul-mate......sealing the deal, as it were.

Just wanted to add that while on their second honeymoon, IMO, Frank's selfishness comes out by being more interested in researching his family history than spending time with Claire....huge clue to his character!

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Re: General Chat

Post by connieg on Fri 24 Apr - 23:18:52

"I've said before how disappointed I've been about certain scenes but have come to the point now where the book and series are two separate entities for me and I will enjoy them and not compare.[/quote]

Hallelujah Ayrlassie, well said!!

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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Sat 25 Apr - 0:40:15

Dear Bear its nice to meet you as well. We expect so much from this series because Diana has written such an incredible masterpiece its seems only fitting that the production should be as riveting. I agree that we are better off for it and I am grateful for that.

Dear Ayrlassie that bothered me as well about Frank. Here is spending time again with his wife after years apart and what does he do? Hangs around with scholars and the like. He must have trusted that he would have the rest of their lives to share together but yet Claire is the one who initiates the sex.
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Sat 25 Apr - 1:10:00

[quote="lochness"
Dear Ayrlassie that bothered me as well about Frank. Here is spending time again with his wife after years apart and what does he do? Hangs around with scholars and the like. He must have trusted that he would have the rest of their lives to share together but yet Claire is the one who initiates the sex. [/quote]

Yes, lochness.....what's with that!  

I do love how the series shows Claire to be such a modern woman....not afraid to show her progressive sexual maturity regarding being the one to initiate marital intimacy and go for it....inviting Frank to go 'downtown' Wink

Hello Sunshine!

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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Sat 25 Apr - 1:55:21

http://www.memorabletv.com/pictacular/outlander-i-prayed-id-be-strong-enough-to-send-you-away

Sorry Lorraine....I just realized now that I posted back to back Blush


Last edited by ayrlassie on Sat 25 Apr - 5:56:04; edited 1 time in total

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Re: General Chat

Post by Misty Blue on Sat 25 Apr - 2:18:45

Hi everyone!
I have still been dipping in here over recent days.
lochness & soniaG as you both already know, I find your posts insightful, engaging, well thought out, constructive & smileworthy! As are yours Shagur!
Before Episode 11, I had so much invested emotionally, regarding certain scenes, that I let that cloud my judgement overall. And out of all the post's this week, it is our dear ayrlassie (Norma) I owe the most credit to. She has been the voice of reason, common sense & astute observation all along for me personally, & it was finally her input that brought my perspective & equanimity back into balance - for which I have already expressed my gratitude. Thus, enabling me to finally view the book & series, as entirely separate entities. Our passion for the books is such, it encourages high expectations all round. But in truth I dearly love this series, & have embraced alterations in previous episodes, because I am completely in awe that Outlander is now "here" for us to watch. We waited for & wanted the honesty speech, we were granted our wish this last week. So now, I'm no longer going to set time-lines for matching chapters in the book with the series. I am simply going to greet each new remaining episode, with a fresh & untainted mind.
Speak to you all after we've taken a trip to Lallybroch!
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Sat 25 Apr - 3:14:45

My dear Misty Blue (Debbie),

I started out to send you a PM but then thought no, I want everyone to know how much I appreciate your comments.  Not everyone agrees with us and that's fine - to each their own - we are entitled to our own opinions.  We share a love of these books no matter what the t.v. series changes, for in our minds it doesn't matter...one bit!  It will always be an adaption and couldn't be otherwise - book to film will always lack something.  

I was first introduced to the book series by a colleague who was very enthusiastic....I must admit that I was skeptical at first - time travel? pffft! too much weirdness for me.  But then I bought the first book out of curiosity and was HOOKED....hence the next and the next...and have never looked back.  I have yet to read the 'filler' books but that is my next project and am looking forward to reading them during the next 'Droughtlander'.  

Thanks so much Debbie for your comment, I appreciate it so much!

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Re: General Chat

Post by soniaG on Sat 25 Apr - 8:23:07

Dear all and dear Ayrlassie,

I´ve read all your comments! My kudos to all who are able - with the help/words of others here - to separate the two story lines so good while watching !  mex wave  

I am not at this point .. yet! But I am trying .. Wink Maybe after seeing all season one episodes I will have more ease to enjoy it .. Wink


Dear Shagur , Misty, and dearAyrlassie,

thanks for your praise to me explaining how my thinking process is working! Well, a good deal of work .. and the fruits of 12 years trying to learn it in order to change it ... to be more satisfied in my daily life .. Wink and  hug

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Dear Ayrlassie,

I agree with you a quite deal but I want to through a few thoughts in to this lovely post of yours ..

ayrlassie wrote:  She fell in love and married him when she was 19 years old and went from her Uncles protection to Frank's, he and she were never equals - I believe he was at least 10 years older, and so there's a big imbalance of power. They were married, ..then war broke out in '39 so they were still basically in the honeymoon phase when separated by the war ... but I can imagine that Frank might have been very rigid and a bit condescending to his much younger wife. We kind of know from DIA but that's not really fair is it, to compare with what might have been before?

Just wanted to add that while on their second honeymoon, IMO, Frank's selfishness comes out by being more interested in researching his family history than spending time with Claire....huge clue to his character!

First of all .. my very "YES" to that Frank (he was indeed 12 years older) was regarding life experience much more experienced. Had already a studious life and yes they spent almost next to nothing of time together and were separated very early in their living together

.. but after seeing the good-bye at the train station from Claire and Frank I started thinking the long period of time separated had been a bit prevented if Claire had decided to stay with Frank and leave the battle field!

I am asking myself why Claire prefered to work herself, to invest herself so much on the fields as a combat nurse instead of seeking physically the closeness of her husband! As we know now she is a healer and this is what nourish her the most. But with Jamie she does it but always with him (mostly) at her side. With Jamie she needs him near .. for both is it that way ..

I have more the feeling that the relationsship with Frank was physically not so strong and her need for him not so big. I don´t think the difference in years and life/work experience drove them apart. I do think they are not meant to be together. And they don´t understand the other´s vocation or passion not really or have accepted it.

(That is what Claire and Jamie makes so strong .... yeah - during book 2 they are struggleing in this area - but they know exactly who the other is and what he/she needs.)

There is further the fact that Frank and Claire did see each other only a few times through 6 years of war. And Claire staying true to Frank.. and then she is thrown into another time and within weeks she is ready to go into bed with another man and before she was totally outraged as Frank asked her if their might be another man/affair due to war conditions ..

So, my assumption is the following:

Claire jumped in the marriage with Frank because he was a lot like her uncle with which she grew up. Gave her a sense of family (which she had lost so early) but at this point she hadn´t explored or discovered her kind of sexuality and the right man for it! And she hadn´t discover her true vocation .. but did find it on the battle field as a nurse without knowing the depth of it! But really came to realize it by being in the 18th century at the side of Jamie .. Wink

I don´t find it totally selfish from Frank to explore his ancestry! In fact Frank and Claire have both a vocation but unlike Jamie and Claire these vocations are not fitting together or couldn´t be performed side by side. Yes, he could have spent more time with her instead of browsing with Reverend Wakefield through old papers! Wink

And I do assume that both their sexual appetite for each other was not so strong .. I am thinking .. Claire iniating the sex interludes more often as Frank (as it looks like to us) is something someone does if someone is seeking closeness to a partner and getting it not any other way!

So the sex initiating from Claire is more an act of trying to get closer to Frank than being mature and a modern woman.

I do think at this point of her life .. she doesn´t really realized that she needs a strong physical connection in a partnership as well that she has a strong calling for healing people.

But Frank, Claire and Jamie .. they are all belonging together .. it is indeed a love triangle .. (as Diana somewhere stated) .. an unusually kind of .. because each one of them is needed. If Frank weren´t exploring his ancestry .. maybe Frank and Claire hadn´t returned to Scotland .. if he hadn´t be so invested in searching Claire would maybe never have visited alone the stone cirlce! Without Frank Jamie couldn´t have protect the life of his unborn child and maybe never had met his beloved Claire! Without Frank Claire couldn´t have studied and raises Brianna so well .. Wink

There is love .. but different love on all the sides! For us modern people with having only a one-one partnership in mind certainly sometimes a challenge to accept. Wink

So .. enough said ..
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Re: General Chat

Post by lochness on Sat 25 Apr - 13:52:13

Dear Ayrlassie,Sonia,Shagur,Misty Blue,Aikman Lass,connieg,Bear & All

We are all a community and though we may have our differences we remain united on one front we love Diana's work!I for one am grateful for the TV series for bringing not only that work to the screen but allowing us as a community to draw closer. We should all be aware of just what an amazing impact this production has had on getting Diana's works out to those who have never read the book or been a part of this community before. I am one such individual as watching the series, an idea both my wife and I came up with to grow our love closer, led to my finally purchasing Diana's books and reading them. Yes I had been aware of her work but for whatever reason never took the plunge until I was swept off my feet by the story presented first to me on screen. Even what we are participating in at this moment and all its dynamics would not be happening without the TV production. So you see Ladies I have much to be grateful for including all of you and the TV production that brought us all together!

Dear Sonia marvelous observations on Frank and his relationship with Claire. I always felt Frank was a rather "cold" fish. Someone who is difficult to warm up. and certainly not a fitting partner for Claire but now looking at what you have said here I can "warm" up to him a bit. Yes I always was aware of how important he was in the story but felt he wasted his years chasing after something to the loss of the time that could have been spent with Claire. Now to think about Claire's decision to leave him for the field of battle is also quite revealing and speaks to a couple disconnected unable to share and appreciate their lives together fully. The years difference in age and the "girl" Claire being attracted to a someone stable who can carry on from Uncle Lamb is also a great insight as well. So what we have here is avery complicated triangle and though we want Claire to fall in love totally with Jamie with commitment and become soul mates it is just not that simple is it? Life is so much living is it not?
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Sat 25 Apr - 14:53:47

lochness wrote:

Dear Sonia marvelous observations on Frank and his relationship with Claire. I always felt Frank was a rather "cold" fish. Someone who is difficult to warm up. and certainly not a fitting partner for Claire but now looking at what you have said here I can "warm" up to him a bit. Yes I always was aware of how important he was in the story but felt he wasted his years chasing after something to the loss of the time that could have been spent with Claire. Now to think about Claire's decision to leave him for the field of battle is also quite revealing and speaks to a couple disconnected unable to share and appreciate their lives together fully. The years difference in age and the "girl" Claire being attracted to a someone stable who can carry on from Uncle Lamb is also a great insight as well. So what we have here is a very complicated triangle and though we want Claire to fall in love totally with Jamie with commitment and become soul mates it is just not that simple is it? Life is so much living is it not?

Absolutely lochness, I couldn't agree more!

Sonia, you've done it again - I had never really thought to bring all the lines together that made up the triangle and you did it beautifully.  Thank you
mex wave

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Re: General Chat

Post by soniaG on Sat 25 Apr - 15:10:42

Dear Lochness and dear Ayrlassie,

what can I say ... ahhhhh .. I am a little bit embarrassed Blush I am sending a big  smile to you both!! Thank you both! That is so very kind of you and I am at your service ..  Wink .. any time! And lets have another round of grouphug

I do love it to give a little help to you or new insights .. .. I must say watching this TV series does indeed make a lot more impact of me than I did thought before .. and in a good way. I just started to rewatch from the beginning and if I am coming home later from my groceries shopping I will continue to watch .. preparing for tomorrow ... Wink

This time my observations will lie about building the closeness of Claire and Jamie! With each new watching I let myself dive more into it. excited happy
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Re: General Chat

Post by Misty Blue on Sat 25 Apr - 15:17:16

As usual fine Sir - very well said lochness! Smile    And "bravo" to you Sonia, you are so perceptive!  flower

Dear ayrlassie (Norma)
I have not long ordered The Scottish Prisoner on my Kindle - & have only just started it, but am thoroughly enjoying it & highly recommend this book.  I wasn't sure about the Lord John book's at first, because he wasn't a favorite character of mine.  But, after reading MOBY he swayed my fondness for him.   And as you so rightly said, we need something to assist us through "DROUGHTLANDER"!  My hands start trembling at the very thought - LOL! Wink
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Re: General Chat

Post by ayrlassie on Sat 25 Apr - 15:36:43

Dear Sonia,
I always look forward to reading your thoughts and insights - it get's _me_ thinking more deeply surprised

Thanks for the recommendation Debbie - I've put The Scottish Prisoner on my Amazon 'wish list', also the Outlandish Companion 2nd edition.

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Re: General Chat

Post by GlengarryGal on Sat 25 Apr - 17:23:39

Misty Blue wrote:Hi everyone!
Thus, enabling me to finally view the book & series, as entirely separate entities.  Our passion for the books is such, it encourages high expectations all round.  But in truth I dearly love this series, & have embraced alterations in previous episodes, because I am completely in awe that Outlander is now "here" for us to watch.  We waited for & wanted the honesty speech, we were granted our wish this last week.  So now, I'm no longer going to set time-lines for matching chapters in the book with the series.  I am simply going to greet each new remaining episode, with a fresh & untainted mind.
Speak to you all after we've taken a trip to Lallybroch!

Exactly! Well said, Misty Blue! When I heard the series was finally coming to tv I had considered rereading the books and decided not to. Very glad I did too. When you watch a film/series, you view it through someone else's lens. When you read a book, a good book, the author's voice and lens evolved into your  own. There is a sort of trick in which you are not aware of anyone else; as though you are the author and all the characters. It simply is not possible to instill this, let alone all the details of a series of 300 page books in 55 minute episodes; however, the visual effects possible make the experience equally as thrilling, if precise comparison is not demanded.

That said...I am LOVING the series!   afro  hugbeer

March on to Episode 12, folks!  mex wave  
Have a grand day. GG Smile
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Re: General Chat

Post by buttwheat on Sat 25 Apr - 18:37:26

I agree with Misty Blue. the fact that the t.v series is different from the book series has allowed me to keep the visions of the characters in my head from reading and still love the characters in the t.v series created by the actors. In short, I love the t.v series for the differences not in spite of them.

buttwheat
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Re: General Chat

Post by Shagur on Sat 25 Apr - 20:40:40

Dear Sonia,
I agree to your assumptions about Claire and Frank and also about Claire seeking proximity to Frank by sex.
You´re expressing your thoughts so well – bravo! And you always hit the nail . hello there

Thank you lochness for your lovely thoughts about „our“ community ; I like the term „cold fish“ for Frank; that´s rather how I imagined him in the books, but not in the series.

As I´m very busy at the moment I cannot write a longer post. (I even cannot watch episode 112 tomorrow, have to wait until monday  No  … so, all of you who can watch it tomorrow – enjoy it and Misty Blue, have a nice trip to Lallybroch!!!)
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Re: General Chat

Post by GlengarryGal on Sat 25 Apr - 21:01:22

buttwheat wrote:I agree with Misty Blue. the fact that the t.v series is different from the book series has allowed me to keep the visions of the characters in my head from reading and still love the characters in the t.v series created by the actors. In short, I love the t.v series for the differences not in spite of them.

very happy
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Re: General Chat

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